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> You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. As someone on the other side of those questions, perhaps I can explain. Very often, people

by adekok 11y ago

> You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. As someone on the other side of those questions, perhaps I can explain. Very often, people unfamiliar with a subject area ask questions about solutions, instead of asking about problems. They've done a bit of googling, and have a partial solution. But the solution doesn't work, so they ask "how can I fix this solution." To someone familiar with the problem space, the question is often nonsensical. It's based on false assumptions about how the API / system works. So the question is largely un-answerable. The only possible response, then, is "Don't talk about the solution. Talk about the problem. What goal are you trying to accomplish? Maybe there's a different solution which can help you reach that goal." This response can be seen as obtuse and unhelpful by the questioner. But it's often the only possible response, given the incorrect assumptions. e.g. Q: How do I get diesel into my gas car? The nozzle just doesn't fit! A: Why are you trying to do that? Q: Stop being annoying, and just help me! A: No, really... why are you trying to do that? (after some back and forth) Q: My car is in front of the diesel pump, and the hose from the gas pump won't reach. A: Well... move your car. It's not always that simple, but the back & forth is similar. It's hard work convincing people that their assumptions are wrong, and that they have to re-visit their assumptions, and re-do all of their previous work.

olig15 11y ago
I understand where you're coming from, but it's often the way questions are answered that's the problem, as shown in your example. If someone's asking to put diesel in their petrol car, they obviously don't know that's a bad thing to do. Just asking 'Why are you trying to do that' makes you seem like you're trying to be difficult. A better answer would be 'I think you're looking at the problem wrong - diesel won't work in your petrol car, what are you trying to achieve by putting diesel in your petrol car?' Yes it's a bit longer, but it actually helps someone know they are wrong, rather than coming across like 'Pff you idiot, you want to do it my way'.
- adekok 11y ago
  The example was just that.. an example. And a short one at that. It was intended to be illustrative, and not a definitive overview of the problem. In short, the answer you give doesn't matter. What matters is the attitude of the questioner, as shown by AndrewUnmuted, below. A good questioner can say "That's not a good response. I'm trying to do X because of Y and need help with Z." A bad questioner says "How dare you question me. Give me an answer now!" I have 17 years of experience in running an open source project. My conclusion is that the content and/or the tone of my answers are less relevant than the attitude of the questioner. People who want to solve a problem don't pay attention to the emotional content of an answer. They keep pushing for a solution, no matter how much they dislike the questioner. People who have an attitude see personal insults in technical responses. An answer of "Your question is answered at URL X" is an offensive response which is intended to personally denigrate the questioner, and insult his intelligence. The only proper response for such a questioner is to insult someone back. As I said below, the only real solution to such people is to inform them to be polite, and then to ban them. They are toxic.
ThomPete 11y ago
There are so many other ways to answer that though than asking why they are doing it. Like. "I would like to help you but I need some more context. What are you trying to do"
ryandrake 11y ago
Those "what are you really trying to do?" responses are infuriating. I feel like responding "What I'm really trying to do is just get an answer to this specific question. I don't need you to re-design my architecture."
- Piskvorrr 11y ago
  Usually, the intent is not to infuriate you, but to get context. The problem may be crystal clear to you, but to a onlooker, it might be completely ambiguous. Imagine asking "how do you say 'house' in German?" Well that depends: is that a verb meaning "accomodate"? Is that a noun? Does that mean "a building," as in "three-bedroom house"? Or "a dynasty," as in "house Stark?" Or music, as in "house music"? Or something completely different? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/house https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/house "I DONT CARE JUST ANSWER ME IS IT SO HARD?!!!!" Yes, yes it is.
  - Chris2048 11y ago
    There used to be a python IRC room were they would not only refuse to help you if they considered your methods "unpythonic", but they actually encouraged anyone else not to help as well. They ask you what you intended to do in order to police if they should help or not. The answer in the above case is: "There are many different meanings of the word 'house' in translation (e.g accomodation, a building) so it depends on context." You could then elaborate on different meanings, or suggest the question be made more specific; This is a question that requires more context; however, it's not the same as the procedural questions that often feature on SO where there is no ambiguity in the language.
badloginagain 11y ago
> Stop being annoying, and just help me! I don't see this, for beginners the reply will be "I'm trying to bake a cake" ... "I need to get milk from the store" ... "I need gas to get to the store" Each ... is a back and forth focusing on the actual problem. Beginners don't necessarily know what information is useful information. This is why physically working with an experienced developer is so useful, because that exchange (which provides a useful learning experience for the beginner) is so much easier in person.
- adekok 11y ago
  > I don't see this Try sitting on an open source mailing list sometime. :(
Chris2048 11y ago
Unless the question is missing important context, it should be answered; or to say it another way, anwerers shouldn't be concerned with if it's the right question, only that the question is clear. If someone asks the wrong question, they might get the right answer, that doesn't help them. That's not a problem. That might be the right answer for someone else - no answer is just for the original submitter, but for anyone else to whom it is relevant. The problem I've found is I've asked a very targeted question, and rather than answer it (or not, in the case that someone doesn't know the answer) people imply it's missing the context of what it's for - it doesn't matter, that would be a different question! It seems sometimes people ask "what are you trying to solve" (in the guise of "helping newbies who ask the wrong questions") hoping it will turn out to be an easier question. I'll also note, even if the question is the "wrong" way, those are the best ways to clarify how to do, since they'll be done on only rare occasions, and hence have less documentation.

by adekok 11y ago

olig15 11y ago

I understand where you're coming from, but it's often the way questions are answered that's the problem, as shown in your example. If someone's asking to put diesel in their petrol car, they obviously don't know that's a bad thing to do. Just asking 'Why are you trying to do that' makes you seem like you're trying to be difficult. A better answer would be 'I think you're looking at the problem wrong - diesel won't work in your petrol car, what are you trying to achieve by putting diesel in your petrol car?' Yes it's a bit longer, but it actually helps someone know they are wrong, rather than coming across like 'Pff you idiot, you want to do it my way'.

adekok 11y ago
The example was just that.. an example. And a short one at that. It was intended to be illustrative, and not a definitive overview of the problem. In short, the answer you give doesn't matter. What matters is the attitude of the questioner, as shown by AndrewUnmuted, below. A good questioner can say "That's not a good response. I'm trying to do X because of Y and need help with Z." A bad questioner says "How dare you question me. Give me an answer now!" I have 17 years of experience in running an open source project. My conclusion is that the content and/or the tone of my answers are less relevant than the attitude of the questioner. People who want to solve a problem don't pay attention to the emotional content of an answer. They keep pushing for a solution, no matter how much they dislike the questioner. People who have an attitude see personal insults in technical responses. An answer of "Your question is answered at URL X" is an offensive response which is intended to personally denigrate the questioner, and insult his intelligence. The only proper response for such a questioner is to insult someone back. As I said below, the only real solution to such people is to inform them to be polite, and then to ban them. They are toxic.

ThomPete 11y ago

There are so many other ways to answer that though than asking why they are doing it. Like. "I would like to help you but I need some more context. What are you trying to do"

ryandrake 11y ago

Those "what are you really trying to do?" responses are infuriating. I feel like responding "What I'm really trying to do is just get an answer to this specific question. I don't need you to re-design my architecture."

Piskvorrr 11y ago
Usually, the intent is not to infuriate you, but to get context. The problem may be crystal clear to you, but to a onlooker, it might be completely ambiguous. Imagine asking "how do you say 'house' in German?" Well that depends: is that a verb meaning "accomodate"? Is that a noun? Does that mean "a building," as in "three-bedroom house"? Or "a dynasty," as in "house Stark?" Or music, as in "house music"? Or something completely different? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/house https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/house "I DONT CARE JUST ANSWER ME IS IT SO HARD?!!!!" Yes, yes it is.
- Chris2048 11y ago
  There used to be a python IRC room were they would not only refuse to help you if they considered your methods "unpythonic", but they actually encouraged anyone else not to help as well. They ask you what you intended to do in order to police if they should help or not. The answer in the above case is: "There are many different meanings of the word 'house' in translation (e.g accomodation, a building) so it depends on context." You could then elaborate on different meanings, or suggest the question be made more specific; This is a question that requires more context; however, it's not the same as the procedural questions that often feature on SO where there is no ambiguity in the language.

badloginagain 11y ago

> Stop being annoying, and just help me! I don't see this, for beginners the reply will be "I'm trying to bake a cake" ... "I need to get milk from the store" ... "I need gas to get to the store" Each ... is a back and forth focusing on the actual problem. Beginners don't necessarily know what information is useful information. This is why physically working with an experienced developer is so useful, because that exchange (which provides a useful learning experience for the beginner) is so much easier in person.

adekok 11y ago
> I don't see this Try sitting on an open source mailing list sometime. :(

Chris2048 11y ago

Unless the question is missing important context, it should be answered; or to say it another way, anwerers shouldn't be concerned with if it's the right question, only that the question is clear. If someone asks the wrong question, they might get the right answer, that doesn't help them. That's not a problem. That might be the right answer for someone else - no answer is just for the original submitter, but for anyone else to whom it is relevant. The problem I've found is I've asked a very targeted question, and rather than answer it (or not, in the case that someone doesn't know the answer) people imply it's missing the context of what it's for - it doesn't matter, that would be a different question! It seems sometimes people ask "what are you trying to solve" (in the guise of "helping newbies who ask the wrong questions") hoping it will turn out to be an easier question. I'll also note, even if the question is the "wrong" way, those are the best ways to clarify how to do, since they'll be done on only rare occasions, and hence have less documentation.