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I can definitely recall how alienating the stack overflow community was to me when I first started learning programming. You ask a simple question and they yell

by nv-vn 11y ago

I can definitely recall how alienating the stack overflow community was to me when I first started learning programming. You ask a simple question and they yell at you to Google it. You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. My solution was just to close myself off from StackOverflow and try any other community. My experience with IRC hasn't been great, but often my responses were miles better than what I would get on SO. Honestly, the best advice I can give to beginners is to make friends who know a bit more and go to friends first whenever possible (at the very least to help them make a good SO post with proper terminology, etc.)

crdoconnor 11y ago
>You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. How is that alienating?
- Armisael16 11y ago
  Being dismissed or interrogated for every single question you ask is certainly alienating.
  - denis1 11y ago
    Maybe, but 'why are you doing it?' is a very relevant question. And imo should be the first question to be asked. Knowing why you're trying to achieve something will allow people to provide alternate ideas instead of fixating on the narrow context that you've set.
- Zikes 11y ago
  Many times I've seen that it's been out of a genuine desire to solve the asker's problem, but the asker has already started down the wrong path and is determined to see it through. A recent example: someone was using a map/hash object to store a series of documents, and needed a way to extract N items from the map for pagination reasons. They presented a for loop but said that something "felt wrong" about that. Many of the comments were about how maps had no guarantees about order, and that each attempt to grab a "page" of objects would result in a random set, meaning pages 1, 2, and 3 could all conceivably have common items, rendering pagination fundamentally broken. There were several suggestions to use an ordered array of map keys, but the asker was determined, stating "it's just for testing purposes, order doesn't matter, I should never have mentioned pagination". Maybe there's an important detail that the asker left out, but by all accounts they were given sound advice and even working examples, but they still seemed frustrated and would likely describe the experience as "alienating".
  - collyw 11y ago
    Its not always the wrong path, but the only path available to you if you have a complex system. You could do as the alternatives suggest, but you know that will affect some other part of your system. The reasons for needing a particular soluition aren't always available without more context.
    - Zikes 11y ago
      Without having an ordered array of keys there's just no safe way to paginate a map. The map's own documentation says that key order has no guarantees, making it effectively random. It really is a silo'd issue, I can't even imagine what other factor could change the above facts without resorting to unsafe memory access.
- jchendy 11y ago
  Presumably OP felt like the "why are you doing this?" response came with an implication that they shouldn't be doing it.
- fossuser 11y ago
  In my experience it's not so much a genuine "let's take a step back and see if this is the right approach". It's more of a condescending "Why are you even doing THAT" (because the person doesn't actually know the answer). You see this kind of problem in person too with people who feign surprise over you not knowing something when asking a question so they can act like they're much smarter, but they're really just insecure about what they know. "You don't know what X is?!" This is toxic, but in real life the best approach is to just reiterate you don't know and ask. This usually reveals the person claiming to be surprised doesn't actually know either (or if they do you can at least quickly learn something). This doesn't work as well with an online community though and people usually just leave it.
adekok 11y ago
> You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. As someone on the other side of those questions, perhaps I can explain. Very often, people unfamiliar with a subject area ask questions about solutions, instead of asking about problems. They've done a bit of googling, and have a partial solution. But the solution doesn't work, so they ask "how can I fix this solution." To someone familiar with the problem space, the question is often nonsensical. It's based on false assumptions about how the API / system works. So the question is largely un-answerable. The only possible response, then, is "Don't talk about the solution. Talk about the problem. What goal are you trying to accomplish? Maybe there's a different solution which can help you reach that goal." This response can be seen as obtuse and unhelpful by the questioner. But it's often the only possible response, given the incorrect assumptions. e.g. Q: How do I get diesel into my gas car? The nozzle just doesn't fit! A: Why are you trying to do that? Q: Stop being annoying, and just help me! A: No, really... why are you trying to do that? (after some back and forth) Q: My car is in front of the diesel pump, and the hose from the gas pump won't reach. A: Well... move your car. It's not always that simple, but the back & forth is similar. It's hard work convincing people that their assumptions are wrong, and that they have to re-visit their assumptions, and re-do all of their previous work.
- olig15 11y ago
  I understand where you're coming from, but it's often the way questions are answered that's the problem, as shown in your example. If someone's asking to put diesel in their petrol car, they obviously don't know that's a bad thing to do. Just asking 'Why are you trying to do that' makes you seem like you're trying to be difficult. A better answer would be 'I think you're looking at the problem wrong - diesel won't work in your petrol car, what are you trying to achieve by putting diesel in your petrol car?' Yes it's a bit longer, but it actually helps someone know they are wrong, rather than coming across like 'Pff you idiot, you want to do it my way'.
  - adekok 11y ago
    The example was just that.. an example. And a short one at that. It was intended to be illustrative, and not a definitive overview of the problem. In short, the answer you give doesn't matter. What matters is the attitude of the questioner, as shown by AndrewUnmuted, below. A good questioner can say "That's not a good response. I'm trying to do X because of Y and need help with Z." A bad questioner says "How dare you question me. Give me an answer now!" I have 17 years of experience in running an open source project. My conclusion is that the content and/or the tone of my answers are less relevant than the attitude of the questioner. People who want to solve a problem don't pay attention to the emotional content of an answer. They keep pushing for a solution, no matter how much they dislike the questioner. People who have an attitude see personal insults in technical responses. An answer of "Your question is answered at URL X" is an offensive response which is intended to personally denigrate the questioner, and insult his intelligence. The only proper response for such a questioner is to insult someone back. As I said below, the only real solution to such people is to inform them to be polite, and then to ban them. They are toxic.
ska 11y ago
"You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it." Without context, it is very hard to differentiate complex questions that are necessarily so, and the much more common case of them being due to muddled thinking or fundamental misunderstanding. If you are looking for help, the most important thing is to clearly describe the problem you are trying to solve, much more so than the details of the approach you are trying. This leads to a much more productive conversation, and can avoid a lot of back and forth based on mutual misunderstanding.

by nv-vn 11y ago

crdoconnor 11y ago

>You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. How is that alienating?

Armisael16 11y ago
Being dismissed or interrogated for every single question you ask is certainly alienating.
- denis1 11y ago
  Maybe, but 'why are you doing it?' is a very relevant question. And imo should be the first question to be asked. Knowing why you're trying to achieve something will allow people to provide alternate ideas instead of fixating on the narrow context that you've set.
Zikes 11y ago
Many times I've seen that it's been out of a genuine desire to solve the asker's problem, but the asker has already started down the wrong path and is determined to see it through. A recent example: someone was using a map/hash object to store a series of documents, and needed a way to extract N items from the map for pagination reasons. They presented a for loop but said that something "felt wrong" about that. Many of the comments were about how maps had no guarantees about order, and that each attempt to grab a "page" of objects would result in a random set, meaning pages 1, 2, and 3 could all conceivably have common items, rendering pagination fundamentally broken. There were several suggestions to use an ordered array of map keys, but the asker was determined, stating "it's just for testing purposes, order doesn't matter, I should never have mentioned pagination". Maybe there's an important detail that the asker left out, but by all accounts they were given sound advice and even working examples, but they still seemed frustrated and would likely describe the experience as "alienating".
- collyw 11y ago
  Its not always the wrong path, but the only path available to you if you have a complex system. You could do as the alternatives suggest, but you know that will affect some other part of your system. The reasons for needing a particular soluition aren't always available without more context.
  - Zikes 11y ago
    Without having an ordered array of keys there's just no safe way to paginate a map. The map's own documentation says that key order has no guarantees, making it effectively random. It really is a silo'd issue, I can't even imagine what other factor could change the above facts without resorting to unsafe memory access.
jchendy 11y ago
Presumably OP felt like the "why are you doing this?" response came with an implication that they shouldn't be doing it.
fossuser 11y ago
In my experience it's not so much a genuine "let's take a step back and see if this is the right approach". It's more of a condescending "Why are you even doing THAT" (because the person doesn't actually know the answer). You see this kind of problem in person too with people who feign surprise over you not knowing something when asking a question so they can act like they're much smarter, but they're really just insecure about what they know. "You don't know what X is?!" This is toxic, but in real life the best approach is to just reiterate you don't know and ask. This usually reveals the person claiming to be surprised doesn't actually know either (or if they do you can at least quickly learn something). This doesn't work as well with an online community though and people usually just leave it.

adekok 11y ago

> You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it. As someone on the other side of those questions, perhaps I can explain. Very often, people unfamiliar with a subject area ask questions about solutions, instead of asking about problems. They've done a bit of googling, and have a partial solution. But the solution doesn't work, so they ask "how can I fix this solution." To someone familiar with the problem space, the question is often nonsensical. It's based on false assumptions about how the API / system works. So the question is largely un-answerable. The only possible response, then, is "Don't talk about the solution. Talk about the problem. What goal are you trying to accomplish? Maybe there's a different solution which can help you reach that goal." This response can be seen as obtuse and unhelpful by the questioner. But it's often the only possible response, given the incorrect assumptions. e.g. Q: How do I get diesel into my gas car? The nozzle just doesn't fit! A: Why are you trying to do that? Q: Stop being annoying, and just help me! A: No, really... why are you trying to do that? (after some back and forth) Q: My car is in front of the diesel pump, and the hose from the gas pump won't reach. A: Well... move your car. It's not always that simple, but the back & forth is similar. It's hard work convincing people that their assumptions are wrong, and that they have to re-visit their assumptions, and re-do all of their previous work.

olig15 11y ago
I understand where you're coming from, but it's often the way questions are answered that's the problem, as shown in your example. If someone's asking to put diesel in their petrol car, they obviously don't know that's a bad thing to do. Just asking 'Why are you trying to do that' makes you seem like you're trying to be difficult. A better answer would be 'I think you're looking at the problem wrong - diesel won't work in your petrol car, what are you trying to achieve by putting diesel in your petrol car?' Yes it's a bit longer, but it actually helps someone know they are wrong, rather than coming across like 'Pff you idiot, you want to do it my way'.
- adekok 11y ago
  The example was just that.. an example. And a short one at that. It was intended to be illustrative, and not a definitive overview of the problem. In short, the answer you give doesn't matter. What matters is the attitude of the questioner, as shown by AndrewUnmuted, below. A good questioner can say "That's not a good response. I'm trying to do X because of Y and need help with Z." A bad questioner says "How dare you question me. Give me an answer now!" I have 17 years of experience in running an open source project. My conclusion is that the content and/or the tone of my answers are less relevant than the attitude of the questioner. People who want to solve a problem don't pay attention to the emotional content of an answer. They keep pushing for a solution, no matter how much they dislike the questioner. People who have an attitude see personal insults in technical responses. An answer of "Your question is answered at URL X" is an offensive response which is intended to personally denigrate the questioner, and insult his intelligence. The only proper response for such a questioner is to insult someone back. As I said below, the only real solution to such people is to inform them to be polite, and then to ban them. They are toxic.

ska 11y ago

"You ask a complex question and they ask you why you're doing it." Without context, it is very hard to differentiate complex questions that are necessarily so, and the much more common case of them being due to muddled thinking or fundamental misunderstanding. If you are looking for help, the most important thing is to clearly describe the problem you are trying to solve, much more so than the details of the approach you are trying. This leads to a much more productive conversation, and can avoid a lot of back and forth based on mutual misunderstanding.