5 ms·

Gender =/= Sex How it is so many people don't grasp this is beyond me.

by zajd 11y ago

sjs382 11y ago
gender = {biological sex, social structures, gender identity, ...} There's no reason to assume that the author has any ill will toward the LGBT community. It's a misunderstanding that people are (with good reason) very passionate about, but something that the author probably hasn't given much thought to.
bonoboTP 11y ago
Because the conceptual difference doesn't exist for about 99.9% of people. Also, most languages have no such distinction. For example in my native language Hungarian we either use the English word "gender" or say (the equivalent of) "social sex" and "biological sex". It's a niche thing. I understand that some people feel sensitive about sex/gender or the differences between transsexual/transgender/transvestite/queer/crossdresser/drag-queen etc. But for the vast majority of the people this just isn't a topic of interest.
- astrodust 11y ago
  Around 0.3% of the population in the US can be identified as transgender, so that knocks it down to 99.7%. Then there's other factors, where people don't adhere to any particular binary gender at all, which erodes that even further. When you include the full spectrum of LGBTQI you probably have to cut that down to no more than 95%, possibly less. When you say "for the vast majority" you presume they operate in isolation, but they don't. Most people will end up knowing at least one person that doesn't conform to the traditional gender patterns, which means it's a problem everyone faces.
  - sarciszewski 11y ago
    I've known three, and I don't have an awful lot of friends and acquaintances. I also don't go out of my way to only talk to LGBTQI folks. (I do, however, go out of my way to talk to people interested in technology and especially computer security.)
  - bonoboTP 11y ago
    I was talking about the T (since the question was how come someone doesn't get that sex != gender). The LGB part is a lot more, some estimates are even around 10%. The "gender issue" is almost 2 orders of magnitude smaller than the sexual orientation issue. So that's the explanation why most people don't "get" or even think about the distinction, but they know about gays and lesbians.
- minikites 11y ago
  If you pool the various genetic causes of intersex conditions (neither unambiguously male nor unambiguously female) it's about the same percent of the population as natural red hair. Should we ignore people with red hair?
  - bonoboTP 11y ago
    I'm not saying we should ignore them. Just that for most people the two concepts "sex" and "gender" aren't separate, and trans people are simply regarded as quirky. For example there are people born with 6 functional fingers per hand but we still say that humans have 5 fingers per hand and don't say that humans have anywhere between 0 and 8 fingers per hand. Treating sex and gender separately makes it seem like they just accidentally coincide in case of 99.x% of the people.
- ooo000ooo 11y ago
  > It's a niche thing. One needs a very special kind of schooling and/or social circle to even imagine there's a difference. It seems to be very limited to (some) Americans. Some people suffer from phantom limb syndrome. The pain is real, but the limb is not. We've not yet reached a point where the politically correct thing to do is to pretend otherwise.
  - peterwoo 11y ago
    Everyone understands that in the vast majority of times we use man/woman, he/she, or him/her, the intention is not to specifically draw attention to a person's reproductive organs. It doesn't take special schooling to detect this distinction, though it does require some thought to figure out what to make of it. There would only be PC pressure to pretend a trans man has a penis if "having a penis" were a vital component of being a man, which it is not. In any case, the circumstances under which one finds themselves having to confirm the presence/character of another persons genitals usually either fall outside of or supersede the jurisdiction of "political correctness".
crimsonalucard 11y ago
As fluid as people wish it was, certain gender identities highly correlate with certain sexes. To be male sexually and female behaviorally is abnormal, statistically speaking. This gender =/= sex is a recent concept invented by mankind.
- phyllostachys 11y ago
  > This gender =/= sex is a recent concept invented by mankind. I thought it was fairly recent concept too until I learned this tidbit in a Anthropology survey course: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender#Indigenous_cultures_of_North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender#Indigenous_cultur...
  - crimsonalucard 11y ago
    I stand corrected. However I could still argue that the concept has only recently become popularized.
    - delecti 11y ago
      The concept has only recently become popularized in the west, but the reality is not new that societal upbringing, reproductive sex, and mental self-image, while strongly correlated, aren't intrinsically linked.
      - crimsonalucard 11y ago
        That is a reality I do not agree with. Strong correlation indicates the high possibility of an intrinsic link, unless evidence states otherwise. Below is a true story of a man raised as a woman, but unable to complete the sexual transition despite cultural upbringing, injections of testosterone and even testicular castration. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
        delecti 11y ago
TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
It's not a clear distinction. It's easy to point to, say, trans people, and cite them as an example of people with differing sex and gender. Yet that's not quite true: a trans person who has undergone hormone treatment, for example, is not quite their birth-assigned sex.

Gender =/= Sex How it is so many people don't grasp this is beyond me.

by zajd 11y ago

Gender =/= Sex How it is so many people don't grasp this is beyond me.

gender = {biological sex, social structures, gender identity, ...} There's no reason to assume that the author has any ill will toward the LGBT community. It's a misunderstanding that people are (with good reason) very passionate about, but something that the author probably hasn't given much thought to.

bonoboTP 11y ago

Because the conceptual difference doesn't exist for about 99.9% of people. Also, most languages have no such distinction. For example in my native language Hungarian we either use the English word "gender" or say (the equivalent of) "social sex" and "biological sex". It's a niche thing. I understand that some people feel sensitive about sex/gender or the differences between transsexual/transgender/transvestite/queer/crossdresser/drag-queen etc. But for the vast majority of the people this just isn't a topic of interest.

astrodust 11y ago
Around 0.3% of the population in the US can be identified as transgender, so that knocks it down to 99.7%. Then there's other factors, where people don't adhere to any particular binary gender at all, which erodes that even further. When you include the full spectrum of LGBTQI you probably have to cut that down to no more than 95%, possibly less. When you say "for the vast majority" you presume they operate in isolation, but they don't. Most people will end up knowing at least one person that doesn't conform to the traditional gender patterns, which means it's a problem everyone faces.
- sarciszewski 11y ago
  I've known three, and I don't have an awful lot of friends and acquaintances. I also don't go out of my way to only talk to LGBTQI folks. (I do, however, go out of my way to talk to people interested in technology and especially computer security.)
- bonoboTP 11y ago
  I was talking about the T (since the question was how come someone doesn't get that sex != gender). The LGB part is a lot more, some estimates are even around 10%. The "gender issue" is almost 2 orders of magnitude smaller than the sexual orientation issue. So that's the explanation why most people don't "get" or even think about the distinction, but they know about gays and lesbians.
minikites 11y ago
If you pool the various genetic causes of intersex conditions (neither unambiguously male nor unambiguously female) it's about the same percent of the population as natural red hair. Should we ignore people with red hair?
- bonoboTP 11y ago
  I'm not saying we should ignore them. Just that for most people the two concepts "sex" and "gender" aren't separate, and trans people are simply regarded as quirky. For example there are people born with 6 functional fingers per hand but we still say that humans have 5 fingers per hand and don't say that humans have anywhere between 0 and 8 fingers per hand. Treating sex and gender separately makes it seem like they just accidentally coincide in case of 99.x% of the people.
ooo000ooo 11y ago
> It's a niche thing. One needs a very special kind of schooling and/or social circle to even imagine there's a difference. It seems to be very limited to (some) Americans. Some people suffer from phantom limb syndrome. The pain is real, but the limb is not. We've not yet reached a point where the politically correct thing to do is to pretend otherwise.
- peterwoo 11y ago
  Everyone understands that in the vast majority of times we use man/woman, he/she, or him/her, the intention is not to specifically draw attention to a person's reproductive organs. It doesn't take special schooling to detect this distinction, though it does require some thought to figure out what to make of it. There would only be PC pressure to pretend a trans man has a penis if "having a penis" were a vital component of being a man, which it is not. In any case, the circumstances under which one finds themselves having to confirm the presence/character of another persons genitals usually either fall outside of or supersede the jurisdiction of "political correctness".

crimsonalucard 11y ago

As fluid as people wish it was, certain gender identities highly correlate with certain sexes. To be male sexually and female behaviorally is abnormal, statistically speaking. This gender =/= sex is a recent concept invented by mankind.

phyllostachys 11y ago
> This gender =/= sex is a recent concept invented by mankind. I thought it was fairly recent concept too until I learned this tidbit in a Anthropology survey course: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender#Indigenous_cultures_of_North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender#Indigenous_cultur...
- crimsonalucard 11y ago
  I stand corrected. However I could still argue that the concept has only recently become popularized.
  - delecti 11y ago
    The concept has only recently become popularized in the west, but the reality is not new that societal upbringing, reproductive sex, and mental self-image, while strongly correlated, aren't intrinsically linked.
    - crimsonalucard 11y ago
      That is a reality I do not agree with. Strong correlation indicates the high possibility of an intrinsic link, unless evidence states otherwise. Below is a true story of a man raised as a woman, but unable to complete the sexual transition despite cultural upbringing, injections of testosterone and even testicular castration. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
      - delecti 11y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

It's not a clear distinction. It's easy to point to, say, trans people, and cite them as an example of people with differing sex and gender. Yet that's not quite true: a trans person who has undergone hormone treatment, for example, is not quite their birth-assigned sex.