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To split hairs a bit: Gender identity is a social construct while biological sex is not. I think the author meant sex, not gender, and GP meant gender, not sex

To split hairs a bit: Gender identity is a social construct while biological sex is not. I think the author meant sex, not gender, and GP meant gender, not sex. It's easy to conflate the two in conversation, but keeping a semantic barrier between them will help maintain civil discourse without the risk of devolving the discussion into a flame war.

goda90 11y ago
The thing is, gender identity is very much affected by sex too. Many outward behaviors that are often classified as masculine or feminine have roots in different hormone levels in the sexes. That's why I dislike that many attack gender roles and other social gender norms indiscriminately. Some of them have a basis in nature and it's healthy for the vast majority of people to embrace them. At the same time there shouldn't be any room for attacking those who don't follow the norms either. And of course some norms are just harmful. It's not so easy to just throw them all out.
- sarciszewski 11y ago
  > The thing is, gender identity is very much affected by sex too. Affected by? Yes. The same thing? No. > That's why I dislike that many attack gender roles and other social gender norms indiscriminately. Huh. That sounds like something I'd expect to read about firsthand on Tumblr moreso than something that reasonable people would do. > At the same time there shouldn't be any room for attacking those who don't follow the norms either. And of course some norms are just harmful. It's not so easy to just throw them all out. I think that's fair.
crimsonalucard 11y ago
I hate to break it to you. But behavior and gender is determined by genetics. Therefore gender identity is not just a social construct but a biological one as well. Take for example the correlation between feminine behavior and two X chromosomes (XX). There is high correlation between these two factors. Additionally examine the correlation between masculine behavior and XY. Again another high correlation implying the possibility of a causal connection between gender and genes. Though correlation doesn't imply causation it lends more credibility to the hypothesis. What if we were to raise a child, born a boy, as a girl? If gender were truly a social construct there would be no issue. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
- sarciszewski 11y ago
  > I hate to break it to you. But behavior and gender is determined by genetics. Therefore gender identity is not just a social construct but a biological one as well. I must admit my knowledge of the scientific literature around the relationship between biological sex and gender identity is limited. Have they found a genetic/epigenetic/hormonal marker that correlates with 95%+ of transgendered people yet?
  - crimsonalucard 11y ago
    No they have not found such a marker. They have not found a definitive biological causal mechanism that causes transgendered traits. They have found correlations between certain biological mechanisms and transgendered traits. However these findings lead to only about a 70% correlation at most. Please note that the 70% correlation cannot be ignored. It indicates high likelihood of a causal connection. It is unwise to dismiss this correlation even if it is below a 95% criteria. My intuition tells me that 70% is only a statistic for a single causative biological agent out of several. Once all biological markers are discovered and correlated together, I believe that the number will be 99%. Please also note that the correlation between the XX chromosomes and the female gender is above 95%, same with the XY chromosomes and the male gender. These correlations meet your criteria. There is no scientific study that proves this but you will note through common sense that males and females tend to act within their gender role over 95% of the time.
    - sarciszewski 11y ago
      > There is no scientific study that proves this but you will note through common sense that males and females tend to act within their gender role over 95% of the time. Then I propose such a scientific study be performed. I don't like appeals to "common sense" in political matters (and unfortunately gender and sexuality is very political right now). Because, hey, if you're wrong, wouldn't that be an interesting result?
      - crimsonalucard 11y ago

goda90 11y ago

The thing is, gender identity is very much affected by sex too. Many outward behaviors that are often classified as masculine or feminine have roots in different hormone levels in the sexes. That's why I dislike that many attack gender roles and other social gender norms indiscriminately. Some of them have a basis in nature and it's healthy for the vast majority of people to embrace them. At the same time there shouldn't be any room for attacking those who don't follow the norms either. And of course some norms are just harmful. It's not so easy to just throw them all out.

sarciszewski 11y ago
> The thing is, gender identity is very much affected by sex too. Affected by? Yes. The same thing? No. > That's why I dislike that many attack gender roles and other social gender norms indiscriminately. Huh. That sounds like something I'd expect to read about firsthand on Tumblr moreso than something that reasonable people would do. > At the same time there shouldn't be any room for attacking those who don't follow the norms either. And of course some norms are just harmful. It's not so easy to just throw them all out. I think that's fair.

crimsonalucard 11y ago

I hate to break it to you. But behavior and gender is determined by genetics. Therefore gender identity is not just a social construct but a biological one as well. Take for example the correlation between feminine behavior and two X chromosomes (XX). There is high correlation between these two factors. Additionally examine the correlation between masculine behavior and XY. Again another high correlation implying the possibility of a causal connection between gender and genes. Though correlation doesn't imply causation it lends more credibility to the hypothesis. What if we were to raise a child, born a boy, as a girl? If gender were truly a social construct there would be no issue. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

sarciszewski 11y ago
> I hate to break it to you. But behavior and gender is determined by genetics. Therefore gender identity is not just a social construct but a biological one as well. I must admit my knowledge of the scientific literature around the relationship between biological sex and gender identity is limited. Have they found a genetic/epigenetic/hormonal marker that correlates with 95%+ of transgendered people yet?
- crimsonalucard 11y ago
  No they have not found such a marker. They have not found a definitive biological causal mechanism that causes transgendered traits. They have found correlations between certain biological mechanisms and transgendered traits. However these findings lead to only about a 70% correlation at most. Please note that the 70% correlation cannot be ignored. It indicates high likelihood of a causal connection. It is unwise to dismiss this correlation even if it is below a 95% criteria. My intuition tells me that 70% is only a statistic for a single causative biological agent out of several. Once all biological markers are discovered and correlated together, I believe that the number will be 99%. Please also note that the correlation between the XX chromosomes and the female gender is above 95%, same with the XY chromosomes and the male gender. These correlations meet your criteria. There is no scientific study that proves this but you will note through common sense that males and females tend to act within their gender role over 95% of the time.
  - sarciszewski 11y ago
    > There is no scientific study that proves this but you will note through common sense that males and females tend to act within their gender role over 95% of the time. Then I propose such a scientific study be performed. I don't like appeals to "common sense" in political matters (and unfortunately gender and sexuality is very political right now). Because, hey, if you're wrong, wouldn't that be an interesting result?
    - crimsonalucard 11y ago