3 ms·

This is called the continuum fallacy. Just because we cannot draw a strongly defined line it doesn't mean some things aren't definitely wrong. Killing lab mice

by hamax 11y ago

This is called the continuum fallacy. Just because we cannot draw a strongly defined line it doesn't mean some things aren't definitely wrong. Killing lab mice to develop life saving medicine is fine with me in most cases. Torturing mice to study empathy probably isn't. Either way, besides killing all the lab mice, we can also just stop breeding them, you know.

Ygg2 11y ago
Sure, but it's more complex, than "Can't believe these scientist torture mice for empathy". For now, mice lab animals are our only reliable models. First they weren't "torturing mice for empathy", they were studying them for examining pain receptors. Second the study was used to determine if something has empathy or not. Imagine if tomorrow we discovered that large rocks posses sentience, would you not want to determine that rocks have sentience, even if you have been milling them into concrete. > Either way, besides killing all the lab mice, we can also just stop breeding them, you know. Imagine you are mouse breeder. Your only source of revenue is gone. Are you going to: A) Release them into general mice populace causing potential short term damage by having too many breedable mice, while their genes are potential long term damage to mice population (mice used to test cancer get cancer really quickly)? B) Feed them and chemically castrate them and or keep them in isolation (solitary confinement, yay!). Costs money, not sure if departments have that much free dough lying around C) Kill them painlessly and efficiently? D) Sell them at a loss as pets, even though they aren't suitable as pets (some of the strains die really really quickly, because they are bred for that).
- hamax 11y ago
  I never passed judgement on this specific study (I only used the worst interpretation of it as an example), I was arguing against your absurd statement that since eating bread can kill some mice, doing any kind of research on mice is fine. Secondly, are you seriously suggesting that we should keep breeding and killing lab mice because otherwise we might have to kill them? I can't even understand how can this make any sense. And nobody here is arguing for stopping all the animal research tomorrow. If demand drops, breeders will simply breed less of them. How is this a difficult concept?
  - Ygg2 11y ago
    No, I'm saying we should keep breeding mice until we have a better model of how human body works. > I was arguing against your absurd statement that since eating bread can kill some mice, doing any kind of research on mice is fine. I was arguing against notion that somehow removing lab mice will make stuff better, for anyone. Humans won't get data needed to design various drugs, mice overall will continue to suffer, since I believe that lab mice make a small set of all living mice.

by hamax 11y ago

Ygg2 11y ago

Sure, but it's more complex, than "Can't believe these scientist torture mice for empathy". For now, mice lab animals are our only reliable models. First they weren't "torturing mice for empathy", they were studying them for examining pain receptors. Second the study was used to determine if something has empathy or not. Imagine if tomorrow we discovered that large rocks posses sentience, would you not want to determine that rocks have sentience, even if you have been milling them into concrete. > Either way, besides killing all the lab mice, we can also just stop breeding them, you know. Imagine you are mouse breeder. Your only source of revenue is gone. Are you going to: A) Release them into general mice populace causing potential short term damage by having too many breedable mice, while their genes are potential long term damage to mice population (mice used to test cancer get cancer really quickly)? B) Feed them and chemically castrate them and or keep them in isolation (solitary confinement, yay!). Costs money, not sure if departments have that much free dough lying around C) Kill them painlessly and efficiently? D) Sell them at a loss as pets, even though they aren't suitable as pets (some of the strains die really really quickly, because they are bred for that).

hamax 11y ago
I never passed judgement on this specific study (I only used the worst interpretation of it as an example), I was arguing against your absurd statement that since eating bread can kill some mice, doing any kind of research on mice is fine. Secondly, are you seriously suggesting that we should keep breeding and killing lab mice because otherwise we might have to kill them? I can't even understand how can this make any sense. And nobody here is arguing for stopping all the animal research tomorrow. If demand drops, breeders will simply breed less of them. How is this a difficult concept?
- Ygg2 11y ago
  No, I'm saying we should keep breeding mice until we have a better model of how human body works. > I was arguing against your absurd statement that since eating bread can kill some mice, doing any kind of research on mice is fine. I was arguing against notion that somehow removing lab mice will make stuff better, for anyone. Humans won't get data needed to design various drugs, mice overall will continue to suffer, since I believe that lab mice make a small set of all living mice.