5 ms·

The real reason class sizes are limited isn't to maintain an "air of exclusivity", it's because the social networks that allow kickbacks and mutual aid only wor

The real reason class sizes are limited isn't to maintain an "air of exclusivity", it's because the social networks that allow kickbacks and mutual aid only work if they're limited to a certain size. "Prestige" isn't a naked payoff, it's a proxy for access to that social network.

jostmey 11y ago
Agreed. I think the top Universities will maintain their prestige, but people will begin to question the value of an education from a run-of-the-mill University. The education won't be that different, but the top schools will offer access to the rich and powerful.
lordCarbonFiber 11y ago
Scarcity creates value. The value of a college degree has, and continues to be, the fact that the university spent a great deal of time and expense selecting you. That filtering process, combined with the student's subsequent graduation, makes for a fairly reliable signaling mechanism for employers. The raw information presented in the curricula is the least valuable part of the entire experience; the market reflects this fact.
- shmerl 11y ago
  Except it's not the true value. Real value is knowledge, not artificial limiting of it.
- eru 11y ago
  > The value of a college degree has, and continues to be, the fact that the university spent a great deal of time and expense selecting you. How does your theory hold up in countries where universities accept everyone, but degrees are still useful?
  - lordCarbonFiber 11y ago
    I'd like to see examples of said countries; at least of any of the developed nations I'm familiar with, I've never heard of such a scheme. In universal education schemes, like what are common in Europe, competition for top schools is extremely high, a single test score determines the trajectory of a student's life in many cases. In systems like that are present in places China, performance not only dictates your school but also your profession with highest performers tracked for the engineering and sciences and working its way down (unless of course you are independently wealthy to the point of seeking foreign education). I suspect, from my personal experience; n=small etc, the value in the ~knowledge~ of a 4 year bachelor's degree in the united states is very close to 0, honestly. Especially for the people in this community, I would be extremely surprised if what was taught in schools came up anywhere bu a white board interview from a pretentious company. I would love to hear counter anecdotes or be presented data to the contrary
    - eru 11y ago
      > I've never heard of such a scheme. In universal education schemes, like what are common in Europe, competition for top schools is extremely high, a single test score determines the trajectory of a student's life in many cases. I am most familiar with the German system (as of a decade ago). We just don't have that many globally relevant top schools, and for the ones we have, competition isn't that tough (outside of specific fields like medicine). If you want to study, say, maths basically everyone who clears the threshold can just sign up to any university. And the `single testscores' aint so, it's usually an average of your last two years of high school grades (=Abiturnoten). These are easily gamed, of course. If you are willing to wait, there's also a queue for eg medicine to get in with worse grades. It's not all roses---partly because of almost no selection on entry, attrition rates especially in first year can be truly atrocious.
tomp 11y ago
I don't think that's true. The MBA class at Colombia is 700 people. Every year. That's not a social network. It's a number of social networks. It's inevitable that you'll only connect with a smaller number of classmates, and AFAIK classes are even organized with that in mind (the whole generation is split into smaller groups that then have classes together).
- nostrademons 11y ago
  They're pretty closely intertwined, though, in the sense that you can probably find people in your network who share a person or network in common with someone you're trying to reach. At least that was how it was at my small, elite liberal arts college of 400 people/year. I didn't know everyone in my class, but if someone went there at the same time as me, it's almost guaranteed that there is at least one person there we knew in common. The whole point of networking is so you don't have to cold-approach someone and there'll be someone or something you have in common. The whole point of social networking tools (LinkedIn, Facebook) is so you know who that person is.
- fiatmoney 11y ago
  Sure, and the formation of interlinked sub-networks is an artifact of the overall size - the goal isn't that you'll be BFFs with everyone on campus, but that you'll be able to find enough socially & professionally compatible classmates that you can effectively collude, but and not so many that the value of the collusion is spread out over unacceptably many people, or that it becomes impossible to actually find that guy you heard of whose uncle is a BFD at the Malaysian fed or whatever.

jostmey 11y ago

Agreed. I think the top Universities will maintain their prestige, but people will begin to question the value of an education from a run-of-the-mill University. The education won't be that different, but the top schools will offer access to the rich and powerful.

lordCarbonFiber 11y ago

Scarcity creates value. The value of a college degree has, and continues to be, the fact that the university spent a great deal of time and expense selecting you. That filtering process, combined with the student's subsequent graduation, makes for a fairly reliable signaling mechanism for employers. The raw information presented in the curricula is the least valuable part of the entire experience; the market reflects this fact.

shmerl 11y ago
Except it's not the true value. Real value is knowledge, not artificial limiting of it.
eru 11y ago
> The value of a college degree has, and continues to be, the fact that the university spent a great deal of time and expense selecting you. How does your theory hold up in countries where universities accept everyone, but degrees are still useful?
- lordCarbonFiber 11y ago
  I'd like to see examples of said countries; at least of any of the developed nations I'm familiar with, I've never heard of such a scheme. In universal education schemes, like what are common in Europe, competition for top schools is extremely high, a single test score determines the trajectory of a student's life in many cases. In systems like that are present in places China, performance not only dictates your school but also your profession with highest performers tracked for the engineering and sciences and working its way down (unless of course you are independently wealthy to the point of seeking foreign education). I suspect, from my personal experience; n=small etc, the value in the ~knowledge~ of a 4 year bachelor's degree in the united states is very close to 0, honestly. Especially for the people in this community, I would be extremely surprised if what was taught in schools came up anywhere bu a white board interview from a pretentious company. I would love to hear counter anecdotes or be presented data to the contrary
  - eru 11y ago
    > I've never heard of such a scheme. In universal education schemes, like what are common in Europe, competition for top schools is extremely high, a single test score determines the trajectory of a student's life in many cases. I am most familiar with the German system (as of a decade ago). We just don't have that many globally relevant top schools, and for the ones we have, competition isn't that tough (outside of specific fields like medicine). If you want to study, say, maths basically everyone who clears the threshold can just sign up to any university. And the `single testscores' aint so, it's usually an average of your last two years of high school grades (=Abiturnoten). These are easily gamed, of course. If you are willing to wait, there's also a queue for eg medicine to get in with worse grades. It's not all roses---partly because of almost no selection on entry, attrition rates especially in first year can be truly atrocious.

tomp 11y ago

I don't think that's true. The MBA class at Colombia is 700 people. Every year. That's not a social network. It's a number of social networks. It's inevitable that you'll only connect with a smaller number of classmates, and AFAIK classes are even organized with that in mind (the whole generation is split into smaller groups that then have classes together).

nostrademons 11y ago
They're pretty closely intertwined, though, in the sense that you can probably find people in your network who share a person or network in common with someone you're trying to reach. At least that was how it was at my small, elite liberal arts college of 400 people/year. I didn't know everyone in my class, but if someone went there at the same time as me, it's almost guaranteed that there is at least one person there we knew in common. The whole point of networking is so you don't have to cold-approach someone and there'll be someone or something you have in common. The whole point of social networking tools (LinkedIn, Facebook) is so you know who that person is.
fiatmoney 11y ago
Sure, and the formation of interlinked sub-networks is an artifact of the overall size - the goal isn't that you'll be BFFs with everyone on campus, but that you'll be able to find enough socially & professionally compatible classmates that you can effectively collude, but and not so many that the value of the collusion is spread out over unacceptably many people, or that it becomes impossible to actually find that guy you heard of whose uncle is a BFD at the Malaysian fed or whatever.