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>as the ability for anybody to attain the "American Dream" without having to work for it. It's not impossible to get ahead in a socialist economy, it's just th

by bduerst 11y ago

>as the ability for anybody to attain the "American Dream" without having to work for it. It's not impossible to get ahead in a socialist economy, it's just that the bar is raised for the lower classes. I think you're hitting on a bigger problem with American culture, which is the "hard working" bias. Is the employee who comes in at 7am and leaves at 7pm really a better person?

Someone1234 11y ago
> Is the employee who comes in at 7am and leaves at 7pm really a better person? No, just a more easily exploited one. I know the question was rhetorical. But I felt like answering it because you're absolutely right. Only in the US do you see people hold up themselves as better than others because they let their employer take advantage of them more. I wonder if working longer than colleagues actually does improve your chance at promotion like so many claim? Or simply means they leave you in that role longer because you're cheaper/more productive?
marknutter 11y ago
> It's not impossible to get ahead in a socialist economy, it's just that the bar is raised for the lower classes. Socialism is hinged upon making it harder for people to get ahead. If you get too far ahead, your gains are redistributed to those who you have left behind. By that definition, a pure Socialist system will ensure that nobody can ever get ahead of anybody else. > I think you're hitting on a bigger problem with American culture, which is the "hard working" bias. Is the employee who comes in at 7am and leaves at 7pm really a better person? Ask this a different way: is the athlete who comes to the gym at 7am and leaves at 7pm really a better athlete? The answer is, of course, yes. Sports are 100% meritocracies. You either perform, or you do not. The color of your skin, the disabilities you have, the socioeconomic status you grew up with; none of those things factor in. You can either perform better than the opposition, or you cannot. Full stop. There are very few people that would dispute that, yet for everything outside of sports there's a subsection of the population that has convinced themselves that hard work somehow doesn't equal success. Maybe it's because it's harder for people to relate to entrepreneurial success than it is to relate to success in a sport because the metrics for sports are very well defined. So if that's the case, to answer your question directly, we need to define the metric for success. In business, that's called profit. The hard working employee is a "better person" (your words) if their work results in greater profit for the company than the person coming in the bare minimum amount of time. If not, then yes, they're wasting their time just like the Athlete would be if their hard work didn't result in better performance in their sport.
- papapra 11y ago
  "Sports are 100% meritocracies" - that's just very false, genetics and where you come from play a huge role.
  - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
    Genetics is part of merit in sports. Merit is how well you can perform. Genetics influences that. As for "where you come from": Can you supply some evidence for that assertion? I'll give you argument (not evidence, I admit) that your claim is false. If it were true, then someone could create a high-performing team simply by selecting people who came from the places that other teams ignore. (Or are you claiming that, for example, there aren't many hockey players coming from Hawaii, even though one would expect that the population would include some with the genetics and talent to be excellent? Well, raw talent means little. Merit means talent and preparation and discipline and coaching and genetics and drive and mental toughness and probably a few things I've forgotten. If you're not going to chase that sport because it's not culturally a thing where you are, then you aren't going to be very good at that sport.)
    - papapra 11y ago
      For exemple, the family and the envirennement, the support of the family is very important... And I would say that raw talent means a lot, the majority of atheles work hard, but the deciding factor is talent.
- bduerst 11y ago
  Professional athletes typically spend 6 hrs a day, 6 days a week in the gym, because there are diminishing returns on 12 hours a day. Your crafted hypothetical and false analogy that American workers are athletes, all to support the argument that working harder is meritous, proves the "hard working" bias that I'm talking about. >Socialism is hinged upon making it harder for people to get ahead. Socialism is hinged upon making everyone get ahead. Meritous people still have opportunities to rise above.
  - 11y ago
kamaal 11y ago
>>Is the employee who comes in at 7am and leaves at 7pm really a better person? By some definition yes. Some body with that sort of work ethic, definitely would convey a message of discipline, commitment and a degree of attachment to one's job. I would rate that person far higher than a person who always shows up late and isn't half serious about their job. Work place isn't adult day care.
- beachstartup 11y ago
  customers also demand it. some customers would rather be told the wrong information, at the right time of day, than the right information 2 hours later. i wouldn't have believed it until i saw it myself. people in general are insane, half of "work" is just catering to insanity.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

by bduerst 11y ago

Someone1234 11y ago

> Is the employee who comes in at 7am and leaves at 7pm really a better person? No, just a more easily exploited one. I know the question was rhetorical. But I felt like answering it because you're absolutely right. Only in the US do you see people hold up themselves as better than others because they let their employer take advantage of them more. I wonder if working longer than colleagues actually does improve your chance at promotion like so many claim? Or simply means they leave you in that role longer because you're cheaper/more productive?

marknutter 11y ago

> It's not impossible to get ahead in a socialist economy, it's just that the bar is raised for the lower classes. Socialism is hinged upon making it harder for people to get ahead. If you get too far ahead, your gains are redistributed to those who you have left behind. By that definition, a pure Socialist system will ensure that nobody can ever get ahead of anybody else. > I think you're hitting on a bigger problem with American culture, which is the "hard working" bias. Is the employee who comes in at 7am and leaves at 7pm really a better person? Ask this a different way: is the athlete who comes to the gym at 7am and leaves at 7pm really a better athlete? The answer is, of course, yes. Sports are 100% meritocracies. You either perform, or you do not. The color of your skin, the disabilities you have, the socioeconomic status you grew up with; none of those things factor in. You can either perform better than the opposition, or you cannot. Full stop. There are very few people that would dispute that, yet for everything outside of sports there's a subsection of the population that has convinced themselves that hard work somehow doesn't equal success. Maybe it's because it's harder for people to relate to entrepreneurial success than it is to relate to success in a sport because the metrics for sports are very well defined. So if that's the case, to answer your question directly, we need to define the metric for success. In business, that's called profit. The hard working employee is a "better person" (your words) if their work results in greater profit for the company than the person coming in the bare minimum amount of time. If not, then yes, they're wasting their time just like the Athlete would be if their hard work didn't result in better performance in their sport.

papapra 11y ago
"Sports are 100% meritocracies" - that's just very false, genetics and where you come from play a huge role.
- AnimalMuppet 11y ago
  Genetics is part of merit in sports. Merit is how well you can perform. Genetics influences that. As for "where you come from": Can you supply some evidence for that assertion? I'll give you argument (not evidence, I admit) that your claim is false. If it were true, then someone could create a high-performing team simply by selecting people who came from the places that other teams ignore. (Or are you claiming that, for example, there aren't many hockey players coming from Hawaii, even though one would expect that the population would include some with the genetics and talent to be excellent? Well, raw talent means little. Merit means talent and preparation and discipline and coaching and genetics and drive and mental toughness and probably a few things I've forgotten. If you're not going to chase that sport because it's not culturally a thing where you are, then you aren't going to be very good at that sport.)
  - papapra 11y ago
    For exemple, the family and the envirennement, the support of the family is very important... And I would say that raw talent means a lot, the majority of atheles work hard, but the deciding factor is talent.
bduerst 11y ago
Professional athletes typically spend 6 hrs a day, 6 days a week in the gym, because there are diminishing returns on 12 hours a day. Your crafted hypothetical and false analogy that American workers are athletes, all to support the argument that working harder is meritous, proves the "hard working" bias that I'm talking about. >Socialism is hinged upon making it harder for people to get ahead. Socialism is hinged upon making everyone get ahead. Meritous people still have opportunities to rise above.
- 11y ago

kamaal 11y ago

>>Is the employee who comes in at 7am and leaves at 7pm really a better person? By some definition yes. Some body with that sort of work ethic, definitely would convey a message of discipline, commitment and a degree of attachment to one's job. I would rate that person far higher than a person who always shows up late and isn't half serious about their job. Work place isn't adult day care.

beachstartup 11y ago
customers also demand it. some customers would rather be told the wrong information, at the right time of day, than the right information 2 hours later. i wouldn't have believed it until i saw it myself. people in general are insane, half of "work" is just catering to insanity.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]