5 ms·

isnt the main problem with C#, Java and similars the garbage collector? which can at its worst kick in while you're in the middle of a fight or something. Even

isnt the main problem with C#, Java and similars the garbage collector? which can at its worst kick in while you're in the middle of a fight or something. Even if its just 20ms, in a online FPS it potentially makes the difference between winning and loosing it. edit: I am a Java guy myself, and would like to do some amateur gamedev in that direction (online FPS), but im worried about above mentioned point.

lmm 11y ago
True as far as it goes. Modern GC can mostly be done concurrently (it's only heap compaction that requires stopping the world). Fully pauseless GC is very much possible (see e.g. Azul C4), as are e.g. architectures involving multiple short-lived processes with individual heaps. Even without that, it's often possible to do a relatively small amount of manual work to do the things that require pausing only at appropriate times.
- autoreleasepool 11y ago
  Possible != usable in production.
  - lmm 11y ago
    C4 is absolutely a production product. It's used in systems that insane amounts of money depend on. As for the manual approach, I've seen it work in production.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    Well, not everyone is writing the next version of Crysis. There are plenty of production games that can live with < 10ms pauses.
    - Nang1975 11y ago
      It's not just the pauses though. Cities Skyline has terrible performance, far worse than other more-intensive 3D games, and I can't help but feel that their choice of game engine is a major reason behind that.
      - pjmlp 11y ago
        The engine or the programmers?
shinymark 11y ago
Yes. Explicit control of memory is one of the big reasons C++ wins for high performance realtime applications like games.
UK-AL 11y ago
Modern C# allows you to define a code path where GC is not allowed to run. I'm not sure if unity allows for this. I'm also not sure about the new c# -> to native compilers coming out.
- 0xffff2 11y ago
  Could you link to the feature you're talking about? Unity uses a relatively ancient version of Mono IIRC, so it's unlikely that the feature is available in Unity unless your definition of "modern C#" is "after generics were added".
  - UK-AL 11y ago
    https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/visualstudio/2015/12/10/the-net-journey-recapping-the-last-year/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/visualstudio/2015/12/10/the...
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    Modern C# means .NET 4.6 For example GC.TryStartNoGCRegion https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn906201%28v=vs.110%29.aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn906201%28v=vs.110... SafeBuffers https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/system.runtime.interopservices.safebuffer%28v=vs.100%29.aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/system.runtime.interopser... Or using array segments https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/9cc4bx8k(v=vs.110).aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/9cc4bx8k(v=vs.110).... Unity has made a lot to spread C# love among game devs, but it also gave a bad reputation to those unaware how .NET really is.

lmm 11y ago

True as far as it goes. Modern GC can mostly be done concurrently (it's only heap compaction that requires stopping the world). Fully pauseless GC is very much possible (see e.g. Azul C4), as are e.g. architectures involving multiple short-lived processes with individual heaps. Even without that, it's often possible to do a relatively small amount of manual work to do the things that require pausing only at appropriate times.

autoreleasepool 11y ago
Possible != usable in production.
- lmm 11y ago
  C4 is absolutely a production product. It's used in systems that insane amounts of money depend on. As for the manual approach, I've seen it work in production.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Well, not everyone is writing the next version of Crysis. There are plenty of production games that can live with < 10ms pauses.
  - Nang1975 11y ago
    It's not just the pauses though. Cities Skyline has terrible performance, far worse than other more-intensive 3D games, and I can't help but feel that their choice of game engine is a major reason behind that.
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      The engine or the programmers?

shinymark 11y ago

Yes. Explicit control of memory is one of the big reasons C++ wins for high performance realtime applications like games.

UK-AL 11y ago

Modern C# allows you to define a code path where GC is not allowed to run. I'm not sure if unity allows for this. I'm also not sure about the new c# -> to native compilers coming out.

0xffff2 11y ago
Could you link to the feature you're talking about? Unity uses a relatively ancient version of Mono IIRC, so it's unlikely that the feature is available in Unity unless your definition of "modern C#" is "after generics were added".
- UK-AL 11y ago
  https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/visualstudio/2015/12/10/the-net-journey-recapping-the-last-year/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/visualstudio/2015/12/10/the...
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Modern C# means .NET 4.6 For example GC.TryStartNoGCRegion https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn906201%28v=vs.110%29.aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn906201%28v=vs.110... SafeBuffers https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/system.runtime.interopservices.safebuffer%28v=vs.100%29.aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/library/system.runtime.interopser... Or using array segments https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/9cc4bx8k(v=vs.110).aspx https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/9cc4bx8k(v=vs.110).... Unity has made a lot to spread C# love among game devs, but it also gave a bad reputation to those unaware how .NET really is.