4 ms·

> To what degree gender is a social construct vs actually having non-minimal differences in the brain depending on your chromosomes is largely settled (IMO) I

> To what degree gender is a social construct vs actually having non-minimal differences in the brain depending on your chromosomes is largely settled (IMO) I don't actually think this is true. Disclaimer: a close friend of mine studies this academically, so i'm probably incorrectly passing along a vague version of what i've been told, plus i have a certain level of personal investment in the issue. Anyhow, there's rather a difference of opinion in the schools of thought of queer theory (roughly: it's all a social construct) versus sexual difference theory (roughly: no, the physical body is important in the equation) -- if i understand correctly, this is far from a settled question. I don't want to attack you personally, because i believe you are commenting in good faith (as am i), but this sentence: > I don't have a strong opinion in the matter other than I know non-passable trans people creep me out on a sub-rational level (so I just avoid them, like spiders). Comes across as rather hurtful. I hope that sometime in the near future (like, 10–20 years? one can dream), this sentence will be seen as equally dubious as someone saying something like "black people creep me out, i don't know why but i try to avoid them". I really don't mean to be mean about it, i'm just pointing out that this attitude won't help any early-stage transpeople feel welcome or comfortable. We as the grass-roots society should probably do our bit to make everyone feel accepted and welcome, especially if they do not conform to our (gender expression, as well as other) expectations. I mention the bottom-up point-of-view in contrast to your "Supreme Court" / institutional answer to the issue. Respectfully.

whitegrape 11y ago
I figured that sentence might be an issue, but I left it in anyway as an honest relay of my thinking. It may be dubious, and may one day be as dubious as the similar sentence applied to black people, but I think it's an entirely natural reaction (just as girls avoiding the boy with terrible acne in school) given our evolutionary history and unlikely to vanish due to social pressure -- it will just become better hidden (few admit to being a racist), but still in plain sight by way of revealed preferences ("white flight"). Being natural doesn't make it good, but it does mean policies and expectations should be realistic. Singapore has achieved racial integration by very authoritarian measures like deciding where you can live and who your neighbors are, which was and is a realistic policy given the alternative outcome of just about everywhere else of racial groups bunching together against the outer culture which ends up causing various problems for the local government. In the absence of negative reinforcement like demonizing people who don't at least appear welcoming to transpeople in the same way racists are demonized (this is the way I predict things going, sadly), and in the absence of well-enforced top-down measures, expectations should be for a long slog towards grudging acceptance of the state of the world. I dream of a more grand future where I can just rewrite my personality(ies) to feel differently about various things, even to rewrite my brain and form a new body to experience what it's truly like to be female, or Hutu. The natural way of things is evil, but it must be considered and dealt with honestly.
- toothbrush 11y ago
  Fair enough! I don't have much to add to the discussion, but wanted to say that i understand the thinking behind what you said, and appreciate the painful honesty. You're probably right that for a majority of people the best one can hope for is grudging acceptance. I appreciate that at least you admit your internal biases (of which i also have quite a number, as is natural) -- that's indeed all anyone can ask for, as a first step towards a more accepting society. Thanks :)
- ZeroGravitas 11y ago
  You may be interested in this blog post, by Eric Raymond: "Preventing visceral racism" http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5001 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5001 In it he reports a similar "natural" reaction to some racial group that he'd never met before. But his theory is that simple exposure is enough for people to move past this, as long as they don't construct rationalizations for their initial feeling of "something isn't right here". Kind of ironic, as he says a lot of things that many, myself included, would consider racist, but you never know, he may be onto something.
  - Chris2048 11y ago
    Doesn't this argument potentially defeat itself as a positive thing? If I spent enough time with racists, I might not find racism as repulsive. Describing losing a reaction as "moving past it" suggests to me he had a suspicion of that reaction for other reasons; Had he not, he might have considered himself 'desensitised'. What I mean by saying this is, flip it around, and people can tolerate a lot of things that are bad. that feeling of "something isn't right here" isn't always wrong.

whitegrape 11y ago

I figured that sentence might be an issue, but I left it in anyway as an honest relay of my thinking. It may be dubious, and may one day be as dubious as the similar sentence applied to black people, but I think it's an entirely natural reaction (just as girls avoiding the boy with terrible acne in school) given our evolutionary history and unlikely to vanish due to social pressure -- it will just become better hidden (few admit to being a racist), but still in plain sight by way of revealed preferences ("white flight"). Being natural doesn't make it good, but it does mean policies and expectations should be realistic. Singapore has achieved racial integration by very authoritarian measures like deciding where you can live and who your neighbors are, which was and is a realistic policy given the alternative outcome of just about everywhere else of racial groups bunching together against the outer culture which ends up causing various problems for the local government. In the absence of negative reinforcement like demonizing people who don't at least appear welcoming to transpeople in the same way racists are demonized (this is the way I predict things going, sadly), and in the absence of well-enforced top-down measures, expectations should be for a long slog towards grudging acceptance of the state of the world. I dream of a more grand future where I can just rewrite my personality(ies) to feel differently about various things, even to rewrite my brain and form a new body to experience what it's truly like to be female, or Hutu. The natural way of things is evil, but it must be considered and dealt with honestly.

toothbrush 11y ago
Fair enough! I don't have much to add to the discussion, but wanted to say that i understand the thinking behind what you said, and appreciate the painful honesty. You're probably right that for a majority of people the best one can hope for is grudging acceptance. I appreciate that at least you admit your internal biases (of which i also have quite a number, as is natural) -- that's indeed all anyone can ask for, as a first step towards a more accepting society. Thanks :)
ZeroGravitas 11y ago
You may be interested in this blog post, by Eric Raymond: "Preventing visceral racism" http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5001 http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5001 In it he reports a similar "natural" reaction to some racial group that he'd never met before. But his theory is that simple exposure is enough for people to move past this, as long as they don't construct rationalizations for their initial feeling of "something isn't right here". Kind of ironic, as he says a lot of things that many, myself included, would consider racist, but you never know, he may be onto something.
- Chris2048 11y ago
  Doesn't this argument potentially defeat itself as a positive thing? If I spent enough time with racists, I might not find racism as repulsive. Describing losing a reaction as "moving past it" suggests to me he had a suspicion of that reaction for other reasons; Had he not, he might have considered himself 'desensitised'. What I mean by saying this is, flip it around, and people can tolerate a lot of things that are bad. that feeling of "something isn't right here" isn't always wrong.