4 ms·

How are any of the things you mentioned useful? I think I can quite confidently say that the things you mention will probably cause more rather than less suffer

by valvar 11y ago

How are any of the things you mentioned useful? I think I can quite confidently say that the things you mention will probably cause more rather than less suffering in the long term. And it's exactly this type of naive disregard for the complexity of actions and their consequences that makes 'script kiddies' so harmful.

omegaham 11y ago
Yeah, seriously. Credit scores are what separate me from the idiots who are insolvent and going bankrupt. I would be pretty unhappy with paying higher interest for loans because some dickhead wiped the slate clean. "We're all equal now!" Yeah, and we're now all paying for it. Same exact thing with hospital billing - wipe that slate clean, the hospital has to take out loans to stay solvent, and they increase rates to compensate. And you know that they aren't going to be able to get anywhere with Medicaid or the insurance companies... so they're going to hit the people who are least equipped to take the even higher prices for medical care. Thanks, Mr. Script Kiddie!
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  >Credit scores are what separate me from the idiots who are insolvent and going bankrupt. You'd think that. I know a person that has gone bankrupt 5 times. He's always able to coax his credit score up within 2-3 years to rack up another 100k in credit card debt before he files for bankruptcy again, right on schedule. I also know responsible people who've been completely fucked over by insurance companies who refuse to pay claims based on their own clerical errors, among many other horror stories. Credit reporting is an unreliable, oppressive system, where your financial well-being is left in the hands of 3 companies that have minimal oversight and exist primarily to help lenders fuck the consumer out of money. Anyone who has your social security number can start reporting derogatory accounts on your credit and seriously hurt your life that way. Think twice before you fork that number over to the dental receptionist. The idea of this type of hack is to force a change in the methodology, not just to reset the counter. These hacks would have to be continuous service disruptions to be effective. They can't just do it once and let everything go back to normal. For what it's worth, my credit score is currently in the mid-700s. I personally believe this type of thing is inevitable. There are people in the government who recognize this too, and have been pushing for cybersecurity initiatives to prevent it (though these concerns have been co-opted by politicians for use in forcing down oppressive copyright and surveillance legislation, pleasing media company donors). There is a great deal of latent risk in this hyperconnected world. It'll be amazing and frightening to watch hacks at this type of scale play out. Like I said, I have no doubt whatsoever that they will.
  - spacehome 11y ago
    >Credit reporting ... exist primarily to help lenders fuck the consumer out of money. You could always just not borrow money.
    - kefka 11y ago
      There are areas in which a "loan" is granted without credit check. Cell phone bills, internet bills with cap charges, medical bills; just to name a few. They bill you later, and in the case of medical bills, you don't even have a clue what it will remotely be.
    - fizgig 11y ago
      If it were only that simple. In a creep of scope, credit scores are now used to determine whether or not you can be trusted to rent a domicile, the size (if any) of a deposit for utilities, increase/lower rates of one's auto insurance, and even some employers now use credit rating as part of screening candidates. Even if you never borrow money, your credit scores impact your life.
      - eplanit 11y ago
        And never borrowing money means no history of debt management which causes a lower credit score.
    - cookiecaper 11y ago
      Sure, but this isn't a serious option for most people. Other commenters have pointed out that credit scores have gone beyond just borrowing money, so I won't address that aspect. Many people don't know how to make money as adults without borrowing money to go to university (and student loans are non-dischargeable debt), so as soon as you become an adult, before you can even enter the productive workforce, you're saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in debt and interest payments that'll follow most people around for decades. Culturally, people in the U.S. are pressured to buy a home as quickly as possible. If you're in your 30s and still renting people assume you don't know how to manage money. Renting and tenancy in most places in the U.S. is configured such that if you want stability, you need to "buy" (meaning, you need to pay rent to the bank instead of a landlord). If you want a decent car that doesn't break down constantly (which is a functional requirement in most places in the U.S.), one generally needs to borrow money to afford that, at least until he's well into his career and has the opportunity to redirect some student loan money into paying cash for a car. You have to borrow money on credit cards to get a decent credit score that'll make it so you're not immediately underwater in these fixed collateral-backed installment loans. While it is theoretically possible to go without borrowing much money, it's not practical for the majority of people. It was made that way on purpose, because banks like money. The system is structured so that the average American pays at least 2x the real cost of goods all the way through to retirement (pays once to the vendor/seller, and once or more in interest to the lender that financed the purchase). I personally find this disgusting and really hope we can see changes that make interest and borrowing truly and practically optional for average people in future generations.
zamalek 11y ago
> naive disregard for the complexity of actions and their consequences that makes 'script kiddies' so harmful. If I worked at FBI I'd be angry and motivated. The retaliation won't come in the form of a zip file, either. It completely boggles the mind that someone thought that this was a smart step toward their own goals. "Let's shut down Mastercard!" I guarantee that someone somewhere in the world was attempting to pay for an urgent medical bill during that time-period. What did the hack actually change? Nothing. It merely proved the hack was possible. You don't just hack someone and automatically change the world for the better, for the worse most likely.
- mirimir 11y ago
  Indeed. Also, this is very dangerous information. For people who download it. There's huge potential for life-altering asshattery.
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  I just want to make it clear that I didn't suggest there would be positive effects from shutting down payment systems.
  - zamalek 11y ago
    Right, it was just an adhoc example. The sentiment of what you said is true - these are just people doing their job. I don't know why you are getting downvoted so much. Thinking that there exists a hack which won't result in harm is an easy mistake to make.
- Chris2048 11y ago
  Proving the hack does change something.
cookiecaper 11y ago
I don't think it's disregard for the complexity of actions. I understand that pretty well. No one's saying it won't be messy, but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. I absolutely agree that there would be far-reaching consequences from hacks that neutralized the medical billing/insurance systems and the credit reporting systems, but I disagree with your assessment that those consequences would be a net negative. I believe they would be net positive.

by valvar 11y ago

omegaham 11y ago

Yeah, seriously. Credit scores are what separate me from the idiots who are insolvent and going bankrupt. I would be pretty unhappy with paying higher interest for loans because some dickhead wiped the slate clean. "We're all equal now!" Yeah, and we're now all paying for it. Same exact thing with hospital billing - wipe that slate clean, the hospital has to take out loans to stay solvent, and they increase rates to compensate. And you know that they aren't going to be able to get anywhere with Medicaid or the insurance companies... so they're going to hit the people who are least equipped to take the even higher prices for medical care. Thanks, Mr. Script Kiddie!

cookiecaper 11y ago
>Credit scores are what separate me from the idiots who are insolvent and going bankrupt. You'd think that. I know a person that has gone bankrupt 5 times. He's always able to coax his credit score up within 2-3 years to rack up another 100k in credit card debt before he files for bankruptcy again, right on schedule. I also know responsible people who've been completely fucked over by insurance companies who refuse to pay claims based on their own clerical errors, among many other horror stories. Credit reporting is an unreliable, oppressive system, where your financial well-being is left in the hands of 3 companies that have minimal oversight and exist primarily to help lenders fuck the consumer out of money. Anyone who has your social security number can start reporting derogatory accounts on your credit and seriously hurt your life that way. Think twice before you fork that number over to the dental receptionist. The idea of this type of hack is to force a change in the methodology, not just to reset the counter. These hacks would have to be continuous service disruptions to be effective. They can't just do it once and let everything go back to normal. For what it's worth, my credit score is currently in the mid-700s. I personally believe this type of thing is inevitable. There are people in the government who recognize this too, and have been pushing for cybersecurity initiatives to prevent it (though these concerns have been co-opted by politicians for use in forcing down oppressive copyright and surveillance legislation, pleasing media company donors). There is a great deal of latent risk in this hyperconnected world. It'll be amazing and frightening to watch hacks at this type of scale play out. Like I said, I have no doubt whatsoever that they will.
- spacehome 11y ago
  >Credit reporting ... exist primarily to help lenders fuck the consumer out of money. You could always just not borrow money.
  - kefka 11y ago
    There are areas in which a "loan" is granted without credit check. Cell phone bills, internet bills with cap charges, medical bills; just to name a few. They bill you later, and in the case of medical bills, you don't even have a clue what it will remotely be.
  - fizgig 11y ago
    If it were only that simple. In a creep of scope, credit scores are now used to determine whether or not you can be trusted to rent a domicile, the size (if any) of a deposit for utilities, increase/lower rates of one's auto insurance, and even some employers now use credit rating as part of screening candidates. Even if you never borrow money, your credit scores impact your life.
    - eplanit 11y ago
      And never borrowing money means no history of debt management which causes a lower credit score.
  - cookiecaper 11y ago
    Sure, but this isn't a serious option for most people. Other commenters have pointed out that credit scores have gone beyond just borrowing money, so I won't address that aspect. Many people don't know how to make money as adults without borrowing money to go to university (and student loans are non-dischargeable debt), so as soon as you become an adult, before you can even enter the productive workforce, you're saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in debt and interest payments that'll follow most people around for decades. Culturally, people in the U.S. are pressured to buy a home as quickly as possible. If you're in your 30s and still renting people assume you don't know how to manage money. Renting and tenancy in most places in the U.S. is configured such that if you want stability, you need to "buy" (meaning, you need to pay rent to the bank instead of a landlord). If you want a decent car that doesn't break down constantly (which is a functional requirement in most places in the U.S.), one generally needs to borrow money to afford that, at least until he's well into his career and has the opportunity to redirect some student loan money into paying cash for a car. You have to borrow money on credit cards to get a decent credit score that'll make it so you're not immediately underwater in these fixed collateral-backed installment loans. While it is theoretically possible to go without borrowing much money, it's not practical for the majority of people. It was made that way on purpose, because banks like money. The system is structured so that the average American pays at least 2x the real cost of goods all the way through to retirement (pays once to the vendor/seller, and once or more in interest to the lender that financed the purchase). I personally find this disgusting and really hope we can see changes that make interest and borrowing truly and practically optional for average people in future generations.

zamalek 11y ago

> naive disregard for the complexity of actions and their consequences that makes 'script kiddies' so harmful. If I worked at FBI I'd be angry and motivated. The retaliation won't come in the form of a zip file, either. It completely boggles the mind that someone thought that this was a smart step toward their own goals. "Let's shut down Mastercard!" I guarantee that someone somewhere in the world was attempting to pay for an urgent medical bill during that time-period. What did the hack actually change? Nothing. It merely proved the hack was possible. You don't just hack someone and automatically change the world for the better, for the worse most likely.

mirimir 11y ago
Indeed. Also, this is very dangerous information. For people who download it. There's huge potential for life-altering asshattery.
cookiecaper 11y ago
I just want to make it clear that I didn't suggest there would be positive effects from shutting down payment systems.
- zamalek 11y ago
  Right, it was just an adhoc example. The sentiment of what you said is true - these are just people doing their job. I don't know why you are getting downvoted so much. Thinking that there exists a hack which won't result in harm is an easy mistake to make.
Chris2048 11y ago
Proving the hack does change something.

cookiecaper 11y ago

I don't think it's disregard for the complexity of actions. I understand that pretty well. No one's saying it won't be messy, but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. I absolutely agree that there would be far-reaching consequences from hacks that neutralized the medical billing/insurance systems and the credit reporting systems, but I disagree with your assessment that those consequences would be a net negative. I believe they would be net positive.