5 ms·

A large part of the insurance industry does not like the Zenefits business model (free software to be your broker), so I'd bet regulators are presumably getting

by mikemac 11y ago

A large part of the insurance industry does not like the Zenefits business model (free software to be your broker), so I'd bet regulators are presumably getting a lot of pressure from the insurance lobby to do something quick.

phonon 11y ago
Except when "being your broker" means "some random sales dude with no training nor experience is handling your company's health insurance." It's not particularly hard to get licensed (usually around $100, a training course of 40-100 hours (which they are large enough, they could set up inhouse), and possibly fingerprinting). Is it a hassle to get licenses in multiple states? Yeah--though most states honor other state's licenses, and just require the fee then. In any case, this is table stakes--and if they can't get this basic aspect right (after being warned for years!) how well do you think they manage the tricky stuff? And why aren't they hiring experienced health brokers in the first place? (The stuff about illegal rebates because they give away their software is garbage though. I'm 100% on their side for that.)
- debaserab2 11y ago
  I don't disagree that it's super easy to get a license and should be done regardless – but, geez, why is that a requirement? What's so special about selling health insurance that you should go to jail for up to 10 years if you're not licensed in it? I'm curious because there must be something obvious I'm missing.
  - joahua 11y ago
    Sell inappropriate product, customer isn't covered, death due to lack of (covered) treatment ensues?
  - jeffwass 11y ago
    Because this is people's health you're talking about. Do you feel drivers should have to get a drivers licenses? I hope you don't think Uber should just hire people off the street and put them in cars without proper licenses. A simple health example off the top of my head - you sell health insurance to someone without understanding the product because you're so keen to 'make the sale'. Meanwhile you promised the buyer it would cover that heart condition he has when in fact you have no idea that it doesn't. A couple years later he needs heart surgery and finds out the plan he's been paying into doesn't cover his condition and now he cannot work to provide for his family, nor can he get treatment to get better.
    - morgante 11y ago
      > Because this is people's health you're talking about. That argument is about as valuable as "think of the children." > Do you feel drivers should have to get a drivers licenses? That's not the right analogy. The equivalent would be requiring special licenses for all car dealership employees, which is not required. Salespeople aren't themselves doing anything medical and there's no reason they should have additional requirements beyond normal salespeople. We already have laws covering both (a) fraud, (b) minimum requirements of healthcare plans. > A simple health example off the top of my head Existing consumer protection laws would cover this. You can't sell a product and claim it has a feature which it doesn't — that's fraud. Nothing about health insurance should mean that salespeople should require licensing. It's pure rent-seeking. There are plenty of other dangerous things which are sold by salespeople without licenses.
      - jeffwass 11y ago
        Perhaps a specific Zenefits example of employee incompetence is of use here. The lady in this example is clearly not competent, and should not be selling products that people depend on for their health. Not sure why you feel having gone through the hoops to demonstrate competence, learn about the various products, and how to advise clients of their options is merely 'rent seeking'. --- "I made like $15,000 in the time I was there, just on commissions. And I never got my license," said an insurance salesperson who left Zenefits this summer. She estimated she had more than 100 conversations with different customers about insurance. "I took my test three times in a row, and I failed. They still let me work." Without her license, she had to improvise on calls with customers. When faced with a tricky question, "I would just google it,” she said. She would tell the customer, "Hold on one second, let me email the expert, he's on the line, hold on one second, I'll get back to you.” But in reality, “I would pick one of the first three links and I would just go off of that." http://www.buzzfeed.com/williamalden/zenefits-under-scrutiny-for-flouting-insurance-laws#.bhVQBA63G http://www.buzzfeed.com/williamalden/zenefits-under-scrutiny...
        morgante 11y ago
        I'm not disputing that she's incompetent. I deal with incompetence on a daily basis. Everyone from banks to airlines have incompetent employees, and we're not demanding that all customer support agents undergo licensing requirements. We live in a free market and the best way to deal with incompetence is the market. (Ex. I switched my bank after getting frustrated with incompetent tellers.) Once again: the worst that an insurance salesperson can do is sell you bad insurance. They're not actually involved in medical procedures, so any harm they can do is financial. And if that harm is due to fraud (misrepresenting a product to you), you have legal remedies. Bank customer support people have just as much potential to cause financial harm, but we don't require them to be licensed. Even more to the point: I can personally sign up for insurance directly on the internet, without talking to any licensed salesperson. If licenses salespeople are so essential to insurance, why can I buy insurance without interacting with one? As far as I'm concerned, the only professions which should require government licensing are those where tort is insufficient to correct wrongs. (ie. someone can die: doctors, civil engineers, etc.)
  - phonon 11y ago
    Errr...maybe the insurance carriers only want knowledgeable people selling their stuff? Who do you think gets sued if there is a problem? Insurance has been sold for a long long time. Another aspect is that if you a professional insurance agent, losing your license is a serious issue...so you won't act in ways to jeopardize it.

by mikemac 11y ago

phonon 11y ago

Except when "being your broker" means "some random sales dude with no training nor experience is handling your company's health insurance." It's not particularly hard to get licensed (usually around $100, a training course of 40-100 hours (which they are large enough, they could set up inhouse), and possibly fingerprinting). Is it a hassle to get licenses in multiple states? Yeah--though most states honor other state's licenses, and just require the fee then. In any case, this is table stakes--and if they can't get this basic aspect right (after being warned for years!) how well do you think they manage the tricky stuff? And why aren't they hiring experienced health brokers in the first place? (The stuff about illegal rebates because they give away their software is garbage though. I'm 100% on their side for that.)

debaserab2 11y ago
I don't disagree that it's super easy to get a license and should be done regardless – but, geez, why is that a requirement? What's so special about selling health insurance that you should go to jail for up to 10 years if you're not licensed in it? I'm curious because there must be something obvious I'm missing.
- joahua 11y ago
  Sell inappropriate product, customer isn't covered, death due to lack of (covered) treatment ensues?
- jeffwass 11y ago
  Because this is people's health you're talking about. Do you feel drivers should have to get a drivers licenses? I hope you don't think Uber should just hire people off the street and put them in cars without proper licenses. A simple health example off the top of my head - you sell health insurance to someone without understanding the product because you're so keen to 'make the sale'. Meanwhile you promised the buyer it would cover that heart condition he has when in fact you have no idea that it doesn't. A couple years later he needs heart surgery and finds out the plan he's been paying into doesn't cover his condition and now he cannot work to provide for his family, nor can he get treatment to get better.
  - morgante 11y ago
    > Because this is people's health you're talking about. That argument is about as valuable as "think of the children." > Do you feel drivers should have to get a drivers licenses? That's not the right analogy. The equivalent would be requiring special licenses for all car dealership employees, which is not required. Salespeople aren't themselves doing anything medical and there's no reason they should have additional requirements beyond normal salespeople. We already have laws covering both (a) fraud, (b) minimum requirements of healthcare plans. > A simple health example off the top of my head Existing consumer protection laws would cover this. You can't sell a product and claim it has a feature which it doesn't — that's fraud. Nothing about health insurance should mean that salespeople should require licensing. It's pure rent-seeking. There are plenty of other dangerous things which are sold by salespeople without licenses.
    - jeffwass 11y ago
      Perhaps a specific Zenefits example of employee incompetence is of use here. The lady in this example is clearly not competent, and should not be selling products that people depend on for their health. Not sure why you feel having gone through the hoops to demonstrate competence, learn about the various products, and how to advise clients of their options is merely 'rent seeking'. --- "I made like $15,000 in the time I was there, just on commissions. And I never got my license," said an insurance salesperson who left Zenefits this summer. She estimated she had more than 100 conversations with different customers about insurance. "I took my test three times in a row, and I failed. They still let me work." Without her license, she had to improvise on calls with customers. When faced with a tricky question, "I would just google it,” she said. She would tell the customer, "Hold on one second, let me email the expert, he's on the line, hold on one second, I'll get back to you.” But in reality, “I would pick one of the first three links and I would just go off of that." http://www.buzzfeed.com/williamalden/zenefits-under-scrutiny-for-flouting-insurance-laws#.bhVQBA63G http://www.buzzfeed.com/williamalden/zenefits-under-scrutiny...
      - morgante 11y ago
        I'm not disputing that she's incompetent. I deal with incompetence on a daily basis. Everyone from banks to airlines have incompetent employees, and we're not demanding that all customer support agents undergo licensing requirements. We live in a free market and the best way to deal with incompetence is the market. (Ex. I switched my bank after getting frustrated with incompetent tellers.) Once again: the worst that an insurance salesperson can do is sell you bad insurance. They're not actually involved in medical procedures, so any harm they can do is financial. And if that harm is due to fraud (misrepresenting a product to you), you have legal remedies. Bank customer support people have just as much potential to cause financial harm, but we don't require them to be licensed. Even more to the point: I can personally sign up for insurance directly on the internet, without talking to any licensed salesperson. If licenses salespeople are so essential to insurance, why can I buy insurance without interacting with one? As far as I'm concerned, the only professions which should require government licensing are those where tort is insufficient to correct wrongs. (ie. someone can die: doctors, civil engineers, etc.)
- phonon 11y ago
  Errr...maybe the insurance carriers only want knowledgeable people selling their stuff? Who do you think gets sued if there is a problem? Insurance has been sold for a long long time. Another aspect is that if you a professional insurance agent, losing your license is a serious issue...so you won't act in ways to jeopardize it.