8 ms·

"Flux considered harmful" That is way too strong - GraphQL handles server/client data sync, we still need a pattern for client/ui state, they are mostly orthogo

"Flux considered harmful" That is way too strong - GraphQL handles server/client data sync, we still need a pattern for client/ui state, they are mostly orthogonal concerns. UIs aren't stateless, there's more to it than just transacting every state change directly to the server. It is a very narrow class of UIs for which that could work.

habitue 11y ago
Exactly, why does everybody forget about UI state like animations, etc that are never persisted to the server? This is a huge swath of what makes up an app and you need to be able to handle it
- ilostmykeys 11y ago
  Ephemeral UI state belongs to component local state.
  - marxama 11y ago
    I disagree, I've come across several cases where front-end-only state need to be shared by components not naturally sharing some common parent component in which the state should reside.
    - ilostmykeys 11y ago
      Good point, but that'll be covered by Relay in near future, and is worth tolerating for now via temporary hacks. The RelayJS team is aware of its importance. Updated gist: https://gist.github.com/idibidiart/49a095b6bc528638f34f https://gist.github.com/idibidiart/49a095b6bc528638f34f
      - marxama 11y ago
        That's good to know, thanks for pointing it out!
ilostmykeys 11y ago
Ephemeral UI state belongs to component local state. Real times streams aren't really meant to be handled by Flux/Redux or GraphQL. I should have said that GaphQL/Relay handles 80% of cases better than Flux/Redux! The rest require a different approach. Thoughts?
hnbroseph 11y ago
> UIs aren't stateless i would agree that this is the traditional perspective. i'm not convinced this is necessarily the case; there may be other ways to look at it. it could be that the ui "value" is the output of a series of functions, and that what might look like a "state" change is really a "new" ui being rendered. (maybe this is what "frp" gives us, or perhaps "immediate mode gui" that sometimes pops up in game development circles; but i'm not very familiar with either.)
- dustingetz 11y ago
  It is always the case. Even if you model app state in a functional way, the state is still somewhere, for example a haskell program may be pure but only because it pushed the unsafePerformIO call into the runtime. UIs always have additonal state that is not modeled in the backend, we can only reduce the surface area of code that is stateful, but we can't outright remove it, it is essential complexity in all UIs.

habitue 11y ago

Exactly, why does everybody forget about UI state like animations, etc that are never persisted to the server? This is a huge swath of what makes up an app and you need to be able to handle it

ilostmykeys 11y ago
Ephemeral UI state belongs to component local state.
- marxama 11y ago
  I disagree, I've come across several cases where front-end-only state need to be shared by components not naturally sharing some common parent component in which the state should reside.
  - ilostmykeys 11y ago
    Good point, but that'll be covered by Relay in near future, and is worth tolerating for now via temporary hacks. The RelayJS team is aware of its importance. Updated gist: https://gist.github.com/idibidiart/49a095b6bc528638f34f https://gist.github.com/idibidiart/49a095b6bc528638f34f
    - marxama 11y ago
      That's good to know, thanks for pointing it out!

ilostmykeys 11y ago

Ephemeral UI state belongs to component local state. Real times streams aren't really meant to be handled by Flux/Redux or GraphQL. I should have said that GaphQL/Relay handles 80% of cases better than Flux/Redux! The rest require a different approach. Thoughts?

hnbroseph 11y ago

> UIs aren't stateless i would agree that this is the traditional perspective. i'm not convinced this is necessarily the case; there may be other ways to look at it. it could be that the ui "value" is the output of a series of functions, and that what might look like a "state" change is really a "new" ui being rendered. (maybe this is what "frp" gives us, or perhaps "immediate mode gui" that sometimes pops up in game development circles; but i'm not very familiar with either.)

dustingetz 11y ago
It is always the case. Even if you model app state in a functional way, the state is still somewhere, for example a haskell program may be pure but only because it pushed the unsafePerformIO call into the runtime. UIs always have additonal state that is not modeled in the backend, we can only reduce the surface area of code that is stateful, but we can't outright remove it, it is essential complexity in all UIs.