5 ms·

Do you (or anyone else) have advice for people who are employees? What do I do if Large Company X wants to hire me and they hand me their standard contract -- w

Do you (or anyone else) have advice for people who are employees? What do I do if Large Company X wants to hire me and they hand me their standard contract -- with me being a mid-level engineer of no note (and thus no real leverage).

ncallaway 11y ago
If I were in that position I'd markup the contract sections that I was concerned with and send it to my HR contact. Some will be happy to accept changes, some will negotiate the terms, and some will say "standard contract or no contract". I can't imagine any HR person ending the relationship just because you ask. At that point, it's really up to you to weigh the specifics of the offer and the drawbacks of any contract terms they won't budge on. Hiring is fairly expensive, and if you've gotten to the point where you've got an offer along with a contract you're fairly far into the process. You don't have a ton of leverage, but you definitely have more than 0 leverage.
x0x0 11y ago
The first thing -- and this is critical -- is understand that you could be held to each and every clause of the agreement you sign. So don't sign anything that you don't want to do, unless you're down to I need a job or I can't eat levels of desperation. Your leverage is you can decline the offer. I had, btw, a former google manager who got funded by a16z slip a clause into an offer agreement that said if I conducted any business on my personal media device (ie phone), they had the unlimited right to search it on demand. Obviously there was no way I'd agree to that, so putting work gmail on my phone was right out. But what if texting me on the weekend meant conducting business? They'd also left in language backdating the employment agreement (presumably because it was an update for existing employees), so as written it would have extended to before our phone screen... which I took on my cell phone. I don't work for them because the ceo said his lawyer insisted on it, I responded that the lawyer works for the ceo (not the other way around), he said blah blah blah, I told him he was a liar. The clause was on him and if he wouldn't forgo it he should at least have had the integrity to stand up and say I want this. And that was that. I've also lost a job in nyc at the written offer stage because new company's counsel determined it would have violated my noncompete with old employer. These aren't empty words you're signing. CA mostly bans them and it's really important to employees, because right or wrong, you really don't want to get caught in the middle of a pissing match with people who have company-funded lawyers.
- stale2002 11y ago
  What if you just don't tell your old company anything? How are they going to enforce a non-compete if they think you are unemployed, but you actually aren't?
  - gaius 11y ago
    If you need a reference?
ghaff 11y ago
You can try to make whatever changes to the contract are important to you but ultimately you have to evaluate your desire for the job vs. how restrictive the non-compete is likely to be on the day you want to move on. In spite of the various folks on here saying you "should never sign a non-compete" that's bench advice that isn't necessarily especially helpful. In my case, quite a few years ago my company was acquired by another (MA company that is very pro non-competes; you can probably guess who if you follow the space). We were given non-competes to sign (that, in my case at the time wasn't really very restrictive). We had a choice of signing in the sense of we could sign or we could walk out the door. Perhaps I could have walked out the door for abstract principle but, frankly, that wouldn't have been very sensible.
- CyberDildonics 11y ago
  They might have said you would walk out the door, but the reality is that they would have been firing you and that would have been a whole can of worms for them.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    Except not really. It would have been "So, sue us." It's not even clear that you would have a case; you're just having to sign an agreement that already applies to all current employees. In any case, is it really worth spending 10s of K$ to fight them?
    - dalke 11y ago
      I interpreted CyberDildonics' comment differently. It may be structured as "sign or walk out the door", but that sounds like "sign this or quit." But in truth, it's "sign this or we fire you". Depending on local laws, this may make you more (or less - I am not a lawyer and have no experience in this field!) likely to get unemployment benefits.
      - ghaff 11y ago
        You may well be eligible for unemployment under the circumstances but that's probably a fairly minimal percentage of what you were making as a mid-level engineer or marketing person.
ryandrake 11y ago
Good luck. I've tried crossing out undesirable terms in the past at several Large Company Xs. The response is always "WTF is this? Sign the contract unmodified, or there's the door!" Of course, I was not looking forward to another 6 month job search, so I signed it.
- timv 11y ago
  You need to view the terms of the contract as part of the pay / benefits / conditions package that you consider before you take a job. Very few people would accept a job before they found out what salary was on offer, and so you shouldn't accept a job before you've read the contract. It's all part of the same thing: "We will give you this much money, in return for you doing these things ..." If you've been looking for work for a while and you've only received 1 offer then you'll probably accept it even if it pays less than you were hoping for, or if the contract has clauses you don't like. You take the best that you can get. But if you've got a number of offers (or reasonably expect to have a number of offers) then you are probably willing to turn down a job (or negotiate) over salary, and you should do the same over contractual clauses. If someone verbally offers you a job with a salary you're happy to take, it's perfectly reasonable to say "That all sounds fine, and I'll be happy to respond formally once I've had a chance to read a copy of the contract", but don't accept the job until you've received and read the contract, because that is the thing that you're actually agreeing to.
  - chrisbennet 11y ago
    The last paragraph is gold. It's easy to forget to make acceptance conditional on seeing the contract in the excitement of getting hired.
- rlonstein 11y ago
  > Good luck. I've tried crossing out undesirable terms in the past at several Large Company Xs. The response is always "WTF is this? Sign the contract unmodified, or there's the door!" On the other hand, I had the experience as a junior employee of crossing out and initialing objectionable portions of a hiring agreement in NY and several years later having the corporation issue a new employee handbook and agreement with the passages in it. I again crossed them out and initialed it and returned the forms. I never heard a word.

ncallaway 11y ago

If I were in that position I'd markup the contract sections that I was concerned with and send it to my HR contact. Some will be happy to accept changes, some will negotiate the terms, and some will say "standard contract or no contract". I can't imagine any HR person ending the relationship just because you ask. At that point, it's really up to you to weigh the specifics of the offer and the drawbacks of any contract terms they won't budge on. Hiring is fairly expensive, and if you've gotten to the point where you've got an offer along with a contract you're fairly far into the process. You don't have a ton of leverage, but you definitely have more than 0 leverage.

x0x0 11y ago

The first thing -- and this is critical -- is understand that you could be held to each and every clause of the agreement you sign. So don't sign anything that you don't want to do, unless you're down to I need a job or I can't eat levels of desperation. Your leverage is you can decline the offer. I had, btw, a former google manager who got funded by a16z slip a clause into an offer agreement that said if I conducted any business on my personal media device (ie phone), they had the unlimited right to search it on demand. Obviously there was no way I'd agree to that, so putting work gmail on my phone was right out. But what if texting me on the weekend meant conducting business? They'd also left in language backdating the employment agreement (presumably because it was an update for existing employees), so as written it would have extended to before our phone screen... which I took on my cell phone. I don't work for them because the ceo said his lawyer insisted on it, I responded that the lawyer works for the ceo (not the other way around), he said blah blah blah, I told him he was a liar. The clause was on him and if he wouldn't forgo it he should at least have had the integrity to stand up and say I want this. And that was that. I've also lost a job in nyc at the written offer stage because new company's counsel determined it would have violated my noncompete with old employer. These aren't empty words you're signing. CA mostly bans them and it's really important to employees, because right or wrong, you really don't want to get caught in the middle of a pissing match with people who have company-funded lawyers.

stale2002 11y ago
What if you just don't tell your old company anything? How are they going to enforce a non-compete if they think you are unemployed, but you actually aren't?
- gaius 11y ago
  If you need a reference?

ghaff 11y ago

You can try to make whatever changes to the contract are important to you but ultimately you have to evaluate your desire for the job vs. how restrictive the non-compete is likely to be on the day you want to move on. In spite of the various folks on here saying you "should never sign a non-compete" that's bench advice that isn't necessarily especially helpful. In my case, quite a few years ago my company was acquired by another (MA company that is very pro non-competes; you can probably guess who if you follow the space). We were given non-competes to sign (that, in my case at the time wasn't really very restrictive). We had a choice of signing in the sense of we could sign or we could walk out the door. Perhaps I could have walked out the door for abstract principle but, frankly, that wouldn't have been very sensible.

CyberDildonics 11y ago
They might have said you would walk out the door, but the reality is that they would have been firing you and that would have been a whole can of worms for them.
- ghaff 11y ago
  Except not really. It would have been "So, sue us." It's not even clear that you would have a case; you're just having to sign an agreement that already applies to all current employees. In any case, is it really worth spending 10s of K$ to fight them?
  - dalke 11y ago
    I interpreted CyberDildonics' comment differently. It may be structured as "sign or walk out the door", but that sounds like "sign this or quit." But in truth, it's "sign this or we fire you". Depending on local laws, this may make you more (or less - I am not a lawyer and have no experience in this field!) likely to get unemployment benefits.
    - ghaff 11y ago
      You may well be eligible for unemployment under the circumstances but that's probably a fairly minimal percentage of what you were making as a mid-level engineer or marketing person.

ryandrake 11y ago

Good luck. I've tried crossing out undesirable terms in the past at several Large Company Xs. The response is always "WTF is this? Sign the contract unmodified, or there's the door!" Of course, I was not looking forward to another 6 month job search, so I signed it.

timv 11y ago
You need to view the terms of the contract as part of the pay / benefits / conditions package that you consider before you take a job. Very few people would accept a job before they found out what salary was on offer, and so you shouldn't accept a job before you've read the contract. It's all part of the same thing: "We will give you this much money, in return for you doing these things ..." If you've been looking for work for a while and you've only received 1 offer then you'll probably accept it even if it pays less than you were hoping for, or if the contract has clauses you don't like. You take the best that you can get. But if you've got a number of offers (or reasonably expect to have a number of offers) then you are probably willing to turn down a job (or negotiate) over salary, and you should do the same over contractual clauses. If someone verbally offers you a job with a salary you're happy to take, it's perfectly reasonable to say "That all sounds fine, and I'll be happy to respond formally once I've had a chance to read a copy of the contract", but don't accept the job until you've received and read the contract, because that is the thing that you're actually agreeing to.
- chrisbennet 11y ago
  The last paragraph is gold. It's easy to forget to make acceptance conditional on seeing the contract in the excitement of getting hired.
rlonstein 11y ago
> Good luck. I've tried crossing out undesirable terms in the past at several Large Company Xs. The response is always "WTF is this? Sign the contract unmodified, or there's the door!" On the other hand, I had the experience as a junior employee of crossing out and initialing objectionable portions of a hiring agreement in NY and several years later having the corporation issue a new employee handbook and agreement with the passages in it. I again crossed them out and initialed it and returned the forms. I never heard a word.