4 ms·

Who wants to have a black box in their home (or bedroom!) that listens to every sound, connects to the internet and over which you have no control? Sure I belie

by roel_v 11y ago

Who wants to have a black box in their home (or bedroom!) that listens to every sound, connects to the internet and over which you have no control? Sure I believe Amazon when they say they only send clips of the actual commands, but how long before these things get rooted left and right? I build my own version of this, which I can customize as I want. I can get the weather (my central home automation server pulls forecasts from wunderground.com, current temp from my own sensors, the voice control unit then pulls data from there), open/close curtains and turn lights on/off, and it says the time. I have a small list of other 'dialogues' (as they're called in my system) I'm going to add when I have some time, but I'm still figuring out what functionality is worthwhile. My software is based on pocketsphinx on raspi, so it's easy to put one in each room (I have only one now myself). I'm using a mxl ac404 teleconf mic, which works ok; you do have to speak up for it to pick up the commands. I'd love to get an echo to see how much better it works. I have a primitive 'tts' system that plays back prerecorded messages, and falls back to festival for unknown words. I paid a voice actor a bit through fiverr to get the 100 or so words I need. Sounds better than full synthetic tts systems, although I need to work on improving the timing between words. This is only a few days worth of work, too. It's not hard to make. I'm not claiming my systems works as well as an echo, but I prefer the control mine gives me.

AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
> Sure I believe Amazon when they say they only send clips of the actual commands I worked on speech parsing software at Audible, where much of the data was originally gathered to make Alexa and the Echo possible. They are not telling the truth when they say that they only send clips of the actual commands. EDIT: This is not to say that they constantly stream audio data, either. But they send much more than just the voice extractions of the commands themselves. They have to in order to build a profile of the users' voices, habits, etc., which aid in the quick processing of incoming speech data. The service is not selective enough to only pick up on voice information proceeded by a correct utterance of "Alexa." Amazon is "customer-obsessed" - and one of the product execs asked on a phone call: > I am an Alexa user, and call out her name but stutter slightly. I still intended to say "Alexa," so why shouldn't she respond to me? That's a bad user experience. Customers want to be understood, not ignored. This is paraphrased, but the consequences of this question were enormous. It basically ensured that Alexa users would not ever have privacy again.
- spdustin 11y ago
  I do not believe you. Please elaborate.
  - spdustin 11y ago
    Legitimately confused by the downvotes on this one... Is there another way I should express disbelief and request more information? A drive-by claim that Amazon is lying to its customers about what Echo sends to the Amazon mothership is a substantial accusation that should be supported with either evidence for or a method for independently confirming the veracity of said claim. So, I'll try another pass: Dear AndrewUnmuted: would you kindly elaborate on what else, other than the audio that follows the wake word, is transmitted to Amazon that ensures "[Echo] users would not ever have privacy again." I think we can all stipulate to the fact that there is an audio transmission beginning after the wake word and ending when we see the spinning light pattern that indicates Echo is waiting for a server-side response.
    - SyneRyder 11y ago
      While I can't speak to what AndrewUnmuted is referring to with Amazon, I know Google Now transmits more than just the command / audio after the wake word: it actually transmits 2 - 3 seconds before and including the wake word. You can confirm this yourself: if you visit this page at Google, you can hear every Google Now voice query you've made, and verify it includes audio before & including the "OK Google" trigger phrase: https://history.google.com/history/audio https://history.google.com/history/audio
    - AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
      I believe that I have provided sufficient background from which you can acquire your own evidence. My involvement with Amazon's speech services is something I regret and wish to help others make better sense of, but I also am bound to contractual obligations that prohibit me from going into the explicit detail that you ask for. If you've ever worked for Amazon, you'd know how dangerous it would be to go into the level of specificity that you are demanding. I refuse to satisfy some loud-mouthed internet user just because of the "seriousness" of my claim. It would be extremely easy for you to test my claims yourself.
jonknee 11y ago
> Who wants to have a black box in their home (or bedroom!) that listens to every sound, connects to the internet and over which you have no control? To be fair your phone has the same capabilities and it even follows you around from room to room!
- roel_v 11y ago
  True, but for some reason I'm less concerned about this attack vector. I'll agree that that feeling is just that, and not so much based on rational arguments.
ignoramous 11y ago
Every tech has its downsides. I guess the hackers would rise up to meet the challenge and provide viable alternatives... but as of late, like with most things, Corporations have come to dominate the day-to-day life of normal human-beings. Who wants to host their content in the cloud on servers they don't control? Who wants to buy a netbook with nothing but Google Apps on them, collecting data to show even more targeted Ads? Who wants to install Chrome (a closed-source browser) when Firefox and others provide much more transparency and privacy-controls? Who wants a phone that tracks your location and reports it to World's most powerful AI company at every instant? Who wants an on-demand-taxi app that tracks your movement inch-perfect, stores your payment and personal information, and keeps the record of your usage till, probably, end of time instead of... well... hailing a cab right off the corner? Who wants to trust entities that hold your money in their coffers and in return show "digits" on-screen as a proof of presence of "actual" money? Who wants to fly in giant metal-tubes, over which one has has no control whatsoever-- from who's flying, to what food that would be served, to what kind of hygiene is maintained, to the safety procedures followed, to the transparency into ways in which your baggage is handled, or your booking information, for that matter? Who wants to drive a relatively smaller metal-tube on roads with other drunkards and addicts? Why are tax-dollars wasted on initiatives that present such grave dangers-- where someone else's mistake ends up costing someone else entirely? Sure, there's always a real and present danger. You gain some, you loose some. -- For me, it was about time someone made ubiquitous computing main-stream. It can only be good for the tech-ecosystem. Google seems in a prime-position to better Amazon's offering, if it hasn't done already through its home-products division, Nest.
dnr 11y ago
I've built most of a very similar thing, for similar reasons. I recently moved the software to a CHIP instead of a Raspberry Pi, so I could buy a bunch of them and put one or two in each room. The MXL AC404 is really expensive if you have to get more than one, though! Does anyone know of a cheaper microphone that's still somewhat decent for this purpose? (Doesn't have to be USB, audio in is ok too.)
- roel_v 11y ago
  I think the MXL is the cheapest conference mic around that is USB and gets good reviews. Also in my experience the quality of the mic is more important than the voice recognition software/model.
spdustin 11y ago
I do, because I paid for it, and I have no reason to believe my data is used for any purpose other than Amazon selling me more stuff, and that they're not interested in poisoning the well by surreptitiously recording audio when I'm not actively engaging in a dialog with my Echo. That said, regarding the RasPi project, I did something similar for home automation before Echo/Hue/SmartThings/etc were around, and I used the Acoustic Magic Voicetracker I array microphone, which still works well for an updated use of that (now it sits on my desk for dictation and VoIP calls). Perhaps that microphone would be useful to cover an entire large room for you? The manufacturer claims 30 feet of usable distance between the array and the speaker, and in practice, I found that to be pretty accurate. EDIT: it should be pointed out that the microphone (https://www.acousticmagic.com/products/voice-tracker-i-details/ https://www.acousticmagic.com/products/voice-tracker-i-detai...) is more expensive than an actual Amazon Echo. The price hasn't changed in the 12 years that I've owned it, either. But I did test the audio samples my Echo sends with audio recorded via the array microphone, and the standalone microphone was far superior at all distances in terms of quality, would would be important if you're doing speech-to-text processing with PocketSphinx.
- roel_v 11y ago
  The mic I have works across the room, but e.g. our living room is arranged in such a way that sometimes you sit with your back towards where the mic is. In that case, you have to turn around and address the mic, as it were. Also, when you're all the way across the room, you have to speak up - not just talk at conversational level, or mumble under your breath as I tend to do. How well does the Acousticmagic work in such cases? Can you speak away from it, and will it still pick it up? Furthermore, how well does it work wrt background sound filtering? Does it hear you when the tv is on, or when children are playing or similar cases? Those are the main cases in which my setup requires speaking up.

by roel_v 11y ago

AndrewUnmuted 11y ago

> Sure I believe Amazon when they say they only send clips of the actual commands I worked on speech parsing software at Audible, where much of the data was originally gathered to make Alexa and the Echo possible. They are not telling the truth when they say that they only send clips of the actual commands. EDIT: This is not to say that they constantly stream audio data, either. But they send much more than just the voice extractions of the commands themselves. They have to in order to build a profile of the users' voices, habits, etc., which aid in the quick processing of incoming speech data. The service is not selective enough to only pick up on voice information proceeded by a correct utterance of "Alexa." Amazon is "customer-obsessed" - and one of the product execs asked on a phone call: > I am an Alexa user, and call out her name but stutter slightly. I still intended to say "Alexa," so why shouldn't she respond to me? That's a bad user experience. Customers want to be understood, not ignored. This is paraphrased, but the consequences of this question were enormous. It basically ensured that Alexa users would not ever have privacy again.

spdustin 11y ago
I do not believe you. Please elaborate.
- spdustin 11y ago
  Legitimately confused by the downvotes on this one... Is there another way I should express disbelief and request more information? A drive-by claim that Amazon is lying to its customers about what Echo sends to the Amazon mothership is a substantial accusation that should be supported with either evidence for or a method for independently confirming the veracity of said claim. So, I'll try another pass: Dear AndrewUnmuted: would you kindly elaborate on what else, other than the audio that follows the wake word, is transmitted to Amazon that ensures "[Echo] users would not ever have privacy again." I think we can all stipulate to the fact that there is an audio transmission beginning after the wake word and ending when we see the spinning light pattern that indicates Echo is waiting for a server-side response.
  - SyneRyder 11y ago
    While I can't speak to what AndrewUnmuted is referring to with Amazon, I know Google Now transmits more than just the command / audio after the wake word: it actually transmits 2 - 3 seconds before and including the wake word. You can confirm this yourself: if you visit this page at Google, you can hear every Google Now voice query you've made, and verify it includes audio before & including the "OK Google" trigger phrase: https://history.google.com/history/audio https://history.google.com/history/audio
  - AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
    I believe that I have provided sufficient background from which you can acquire your own evidence. My involvement with Amazon's speech services is something I regret and wish to help others make better sense of, but I also am bound to contractual obligations that prohibit me from going into the explicit detail that you ask for. If you've ever worked for Amazon, you'd know how dangerous it would be to go into the level of specificity that you are demanding. I refuse to satisfy some loud-mouthed internet user just because of the "seriousness" of my claim. It would be extremely easy for you to test my claims yourself.

jonknee 11y ago

> Who wants to have a black box in their home (or bedroom!) that listens to every sound, connects to the internet and over which you have no control? To be fair your phone has the same capabilities and it even follows you around from room to room!

roel_v 11y ago
True, but for some reason I'm less concerned about this attack vector. I'll agree that that feeling is just that, and not so much based on rational arguments.

ignoramous 11y ago

Every tech has its downsides. I guess the hackers would rise up to meet the challenge and provide viable alternatives... but as of late, like with most things, Corporations have come to dominate the day-to-day life of normal human-beings. Who wants to host their content in the cloud on servers they don't control? Who wants to buy a netbook with nothing but Google Apps on them, collecting data to show even more targeted Ads? Who wants to install Chrome (a closed-source browser) when Firefox and others provide much more transparency and privacy-controls? Who wants a phone that tracks your location and reports it to World's most powerful AI company at every instant? Who wants an on-demand-taxi app that tracks your movement inch-perfect, stores your payment and personal information, and keeps the record of your usage till, probably, end of time instead of... well... hailing a cab right off the corner? Who wants to trust entities that hold your money in their coffers and in return show "digits" on-screen as a proof of presence of "actual" money? Who wants to fly in giant metal-tubes, over which one has has no control whatsoever-- from who's flying, to what food that would be served, to what kind of hygiene is maintained, to the safety procedures followed, to the transparency into ways in which your baggage is handled, or your booking information, for that matter? Who wants to drive a relatively smaller metal-tube on roads with other drunkards and addicts? Why are tax-dollars wasted on initiatives that present such grave dangers-- where someone else's mistake ends up costing someone else entirely? Sure, there's always a real and present danger. You gain some, you loose some. -- For me, it was about time someone made ubiquitous computing main-stream. It can only be good for the tech-ecosystem. Google seems in a prime-position to better Amazon's offering, if it hasn't done already through its home-products division, Nest.

dnr 11y ago

I've built most of a very similar thing, for similar reasons. I recently moved the software to a CHIP instead of a Raspberry Pi, so I could buy a bunch of them and put one or two in each room. The MXL AC404 is really expensive if you have to get more than one, though! Does anyone know of a cheaper microphone that's still somewhat decent for this purpose? (Doesn't have to be USB, audio in is ok too.)

roel_v 11y ago
I think the MXL is the cheapest conference mic around that is USB and gets good reviews. Also in my experience the quality of the mic is more important than the voice recognition software/model.

spdustin 11y ago

I do, because I paid for it, and I have no reason to believe my data is used for any purpose other than Amazon selling me more stuff, and that they're not interested in poisoning the well by surreptitiously recording audio when I'm not actively engaging in a dialog with my Echo. That said, regarding the RasPi project, I did something similar for home automation before Echo/Hue/SmartThings/etc were around, and I used the Acoustic Magic Voicetracker I array microphone, which still works well for an updated use of that (now it sits on my desk for dictation and VoIP calls). Perhaps that microphone would be useful to cover an entire large room for you? The manufacturer claims 30 feet of usable distance between the array and the speaker, and in practice, I found that to be pretty accurate. EDIT: it should be pointed out that the microphone (https://www.acousticmagic.com/products/voice-tracker-i-details/ https://www.acousticmagic.com/products/voice-tracker-i-detai...) is more expensive than an actual Amazon Echo. The price hasn't changed in the 12 years that I've owned it, either. But I did test the audio samples my Echo sends with audio recorded via the array microphone, and the standalone microphone was far superior at all distances in terms of quality, would would be important if you're doing speech-to-text processing with PocketSphinx.

roel_v 11y ago
The mic I have works across the room, but e.g. our living room is arranged in such a way that sometimes you sit with your back towards where the mic is. In that case, you have to turn around and address the mic, as it were. Also, when you're all the way across the room, you have to speak up - not just talk at conversational level, or mumble under your breath as I tend to do. How well does the Acousticmagic work in such cases? Can you speak away from it, and will it still pick it up? Furthermore, how well does it work wrt background sound filtering? Does it hear you when the tv is on, or when children are playing or similar cases? Those are the main cases in which my setup requires speaking up.