7 ms·

“GOTO Considered Harmful” Considered Harmful (1987) [pdf]

39 points by vmorgulis 11y ago

orionblastar 11y ago
Yeah the GOTO got a bad rap, if someone used it wrong it would have unpredicted results by goting to the wrong part of the program. It confused beginners so it was to be avoided. People forgot that any language gets converted into assembly language and it has JMP or JUMP statements in them that basically do the same thing as a GOTO in a higher level language. I wrote Visual BASIC 6.0 code and in order to trap errors we had a On Error Goto ErrorHandler: where we had an error handling routine that would do a customized message box to give the user more information on the error and prevent the program from ending. I would give recruiters samples of my VB code and it had On Error Goto and they saw the Goto and told me I shouldn't be using it. VB.Net did away with Gotos and did the try/catch borrowed from Java to catch errors. I remember learning Ada in 1989 and it used Goto statements as well. Modern Ada avoids Goto statements. Programming without using Goto is harder and in some cases needs more lines of code. There was never any real evidence that Goto was harmful, as the article states people accepted it was harmful without any proof. The decisions to not use Goto was decided by managers with no real world programming experience.
- efaref 11y ago
  "GOTO considered harmful" needs to be read in its historical context, where structured programming (for loops, while loops, functions) were new-fangled and under-used. Dijsktra was not arguing against GOTO per se, but rather against unstructured programming. Using GOTO to implement structured programming constructs that did not exist in the language (e.g. JMP in asm) is fine.
yoz-y 11y ago
Now we have replaced GOTOs with callback calls into functions defined in other files that are pretty much as untraceable.
dominotw 11y ago
I've seen goto used in golang stdlib for error handling https://github.com/golang/go/blob/master/src/strconv/atoi.go#L134 https://github.com/golang/go/blob/master/src/strconv/atoi.go...
- PeCaN 11y ago
  That's a very common C idiom.
- rhinoceraptor 11y ago
  Here it is, used in OpenBSD's httpd: https://github.com/reyk/httpd/blob/master/httpd/httpd.c#L548 https://github.com/reyk/httpd/blob/master/httpd/httpd.c#L548
- AdmiralAsshat 11y ago
  Most reasonable programmers have understood "GOTO Considered Harmful" to be a recommendation, not a doctrine. Goto can be very useful when used carefully, most often for a "cleanup" block, as used in the example above. It's especially common in C where the memory needs to be freed before exiting.
pkroll 11y ago
Obligatory Code Complete reference[1]: "These articles contain the whole goto debate. It erupts from time to time in most workplaces, textbooks, and magazines, but you won't hear anything that wasn't fully explored 20 years ago." [1]http://www.stevemcconnell.com/ccgoto.htm http://www.stevemcconnell.com/ccgoto.htm
green7ea 11y ago
This paper talks about a certain kind of GOTOs: assembly like GOTOs that can jump anywhere in the code. GOTOs in c and c++ can only jump to a place in the current context. This makes a big difference in security and usability of GOTOs.
- 0x07c0 11y ago
  stdlib do have this: #include <setjmp.h> longjmp(BACK_TO_MAMA,1); Never used this though.
bitwize 11y ago
If your language does not give me modern control structures -- such as tail call optimization and possibly first-class continuations -- I will want goto there as a backstop. I hardly ever use it, but when I do I'll need it.
pkolaczk 11y ago
Honestly, all the examples in this paper are terrible, either the ones using goto and the goto-less ones. Didn't they know functions in 1987? ;)
- ggchappell 11y ago
  > Didn't they know functions in 1987? ;) In all seriousness: only just barely. I entered the undergraduate C.S. program at the U. of Kansas in 1983. The faculty were constantly saying, "We're doing structured programming now!" -- as if they weren't quite convinced yet, and needed to remind themselves. I think this letter does correctly point out that, while simple selection & iteration constructs are sufficient to do anything we want, concise, readable code requires more. And so now we have -- yes -- return, and also break, exceptions, etc. (I'm rather surprised that the idea of a multi-level break, which has been proposed for more than one PL, has never really caught on.) P.S. Perhaps we could title your comment " 'GOTO Considered Harmful' Considered Harmful" Considered Harmful.
- onetwotree 11y ago
  Yes. The author of the linked comment in fact complains that goto-less programming has led to the gratuitous overuse of subroutines. In the absence of modern optimizing compilers this was very inefficient. Imagine the authors horror had he witnessed the use of properties in modern object oriented languages! Of course, properties are almost always trivial for an optimizing compiler, or a JITC, to inline, and inlining is the mother of all optimizations.
- Apocryphon 11y ago
  K&R 2nd edition came out in 1988, after all.
GalacticDomin8r 11y ago
Having seen old complex apps written in basic, I would say use of BASIC considered harmful. You can't help but create spaghetti code.
Roboprog 11y ago
Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. The example of looking for a row of 0s that skips the current row on the first non 0 can (now) be dealt with using constructs like named break/continue statements (in things like Java or C#). (I would not be opposed to making the inner and outer loops separate functions with returns, either, though) What the author said was true at the time, but has since been dealt with by having richer control constructs for goto-less ("jump anywhere") programming.
- Roboprog 11y ago
  Maybe lexical scope for goto labels, rather than global symbols??? :-)
jcranmer 11y ago
It's worth noting that the coding climate has changed considerably since 1987. Modern goto-less languages, such as Java, include break and continue statements that can target any enclosing block; many of the example programs that people suggest using gotos for end up basically using these forms. It's worth pointing out that these multi-level break/continue statements allow you to build any reducible control flow graph (that is, the only thing you cannot do is construct a loop which has two entry points; incidentally, these constructs are also the best way to ensure that the optimizer gives up). Optimizers have also gotten better over the years--it would be fairly easy to transform the idiomatic find-loop pattern based on flags to the one that uses the goto. There's also been a shift to using basic block-based optimizers, which means that the optimizer sees a loop statement and something built entirely of gotos as completely identical anyways. So, in the end, the goto debate is moot: there's no real difference in performance either way these days, and we've renamed the goto instruction to break which sidesteps most of the puritanical section of the debate.
- sklogic 11y ago
  There is a still a noticeable difference in performance of a `goto`-based FSM implementation and a switch-in-a-loop one. And there is a huge performance difference between a computed `goto` implementation of a VM vs. a switch-based one. Break is not a substitute for any of this use cases.
  - 0x07c0 11y ago
    In my current project I use both. Direct coded lexer and a vm using gnu-c &&label.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    Couldn't one just macro an implementation of such things that use goto underneath?
    - sklogic 11y ago
      Of course. But only if goto was not removed from the underlying language.
stepvhen 11y ago
In a letter titled "On a Somewhat Disappointing Correspondence"[1][2], Dijkstra replied to this and other reponses, the larger one titled "'"GOTO Considered Harmful" Considered Harmful' Considered Harmful?" It is rather tongue in cheek. [1]: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd10xx/EWD1009.PDF http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd10xx/EWD1009.PDF [2]: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1009.html http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EW... (transcription)
- langarto 11y ago
  Thanks for posting Dijkstra answer. I had read it a lot of time ago and was going to post it myself. Even keeping in mind that it was written with tongue in cheek, Mr Dijkstra does sound like a bit of a jerk in this paper. Also, I think that this response actually validates Rubin's thesis: Dijkstra points to a number of bugs in the second and third versions of the program (i.e., those without GOTO), proving that the GOTO-less version is not only shorter, but easier to get right.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    He is a jerk. That was consistent in much of what I read. Very elitist.
mannykannot 11y ago
A large part of the debate that followed the publication of "GOTO Considered Harmful", and which smolders to this day, concerned whether there are any corner cases where gotos are the better choice. This rather pedantic issue is largely beside Dijkstra's main point, which was that it is infeasible to analyze programs for correctness unless they use simple, nested, control and flow structures. Of course, Dijkstra himself bears some of the responsibility for this diversion, through his choice of a click-baity title. He was probably right in this choice however, as the paper got enough attention to have a significant and lasting influence (though we are not doing analytical verification to anywhere near the extent he demanded.)
- 0x07c0 11y ago
  They are not corner cases, it rely depend on what domain you work in. Currently working on "tooling" for HPC application, and use goto all the time. Any form of system programming in c will probably have lots of goto's. Error handling being the most usual. Also some algos express them self best using goto's. And of course asm, try writing anything in asm without jumps :-)
  - mannykannot 11y ago
    I think I am on safe ground in saying that Dijkstra was well aware of the use of jumps in asm, but that is beside the point he was making in the body of the paper - as opposed to the point, taken from the title of the paper, that most of the argument has been about.
    - 0x07c0 11y ago
      Well the part about asm was obviously a joke, control structures are nice to have. My point was that in many domains goto's are useful, both for solving problems, getting performance and for code clarity.
vmorgulis 11y ago
Github says 11 494 gotos in the kernel: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=goto https://github.com/torvalds/linux/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=go...
gaius 11y ago
Computed GOTOs and GOSUBs are very underrated in modern programming.
alejohausner 11y ago
GOTO (considered harmful)^n, where n is an even positive integer
- fabulist 11y ago
  Or zero.

39 points by vmorgulis 11y ago

Yeah the GOTO got a bad rap, if someone used it wrong it would have unpredicted results by goting to the wrong part of the program. It confused beginners so it was to be avoided. People forgot that any language gets converted into assembly language and it has JMP or JUMP statements in them that basically do the same thing as a GOTO in a higher level language. I wrote Visual BASIC 6.0 code and in order to trap errors we had a On Error Goto ErrorHandler: where we had an error handling routine that would do a customized message box to give the user more information on the error and prevent the program from ending. I would give recruiters samples of my VB code and it had On Error Goto and they saw the Goto and told me I shouldn't be using it. VB.Net did away with Gotos and did the try/catch borrowed from Java to catch errors. I remember learning Ada in 1989 and it used Goto statements as well. Modern Ada avoids Goto statements. Programming without using Goto is harder and in some cases needs more lines of code. There was never any real evidence that Goto was harmful, as the article states people accepted it was harmful without any proof. The decisions to not use Goto was decided by managers with no real world programming experience.

efaref 11y ago
"GOTO considered harmful" needs to be read in its historical context, where structured programming (for loops, while loops, functions) were new-fangled and under-used. Dijsktra was not arguing against GOTO per se, but rather against unstructured programming. Using GOTO to implement structured programming constructs that did not exist in the language (e.g. JMP in asm) is fine.

yoz-y 11y ago

Now we have replaced GOTOs with callback calls into functions defined in other files that are pretty much as untraceable.

dominotw 11y ago

I've seen goto used in golang stdlib for error handling https://github.com/golang/go/blob/master/src/strconv/atoi.go#L134 https://github.com/golang/go/blob/master/src/strconv/atoi.go...

PeCaN 11y ago
That's a very common C idiom.
rhinoceraptor 11y ago
Here it is, used in OpenBSD's httpd: https://github.com/reyk/httpd/blob/master/httpd/httpd.c#L548 https://github.com/reyk/httpd/blob/master/httpd/httpd.c#L548
AdmiralAsshat 11y ago
Most reasonable programmers have understood "GOTO Considered Harmful" to be a recommendation, not a doctrine. Goto can be very useful when used carefully, most often for a "cleanup" block, as used in the example above. It's especially common in C where the memory needs to be freed before exiting.

pkroll 11y ago

Obligatory Code Complete reference[1]: "These articles contain the whole goto debate. It erupts from time to time in most workplaces, textbooks, and magazines, but you won't hear anything that wasn't fully explored 20 years ago." [1]http://www.stevemcconnell.com/ccgoto.htm http://www.stevemcconnell.com/ccgoto.htm

green7ea 11y ago

This paper talks about a certain kind of GOTOs: assembly like GOTOs that can jump anywhere in the code. GOTOs in c and c++ can only jump to a place in the current context. This makes a big difference in security and usability of GOTOs.

0x07c0 11y ago
stdlib do have this: #include <setjmp.h> longjmp(BACK_TO_MAMA,1); Never used this though.

bitwize 11y ago

If your language does not give me modern control structures -- such as tail call optimization and possibly first-class continuations -- I will want goto there as a backstop. I hardly ever use it, but when I do I'll need it.

pkolaczk 11y ago

Honestly, all the examples in this paper are terrible, either the ones using goto and the goto-less ones. Didn't they know functions in 1987? ;)

ggchappell 11y ago
> Didn't they know functions in 1987? ;) In all seriousness: only just barely. I entered the undergraduate C.S. program at the U. of Kansas in 1983. The faculty were constantly saying, "We're doing structured programming now!" -- as if they weren't quite convinced yet, and needed to remind themselves. I think this letter does correctly point out that, while simple selection & iteration constructs are sufficient to do anything we want, concise, readable code requires more. And so now we have -- yes -- return, and also break, exceptions, etc. (I'm rather surprised that the idea of a multi-level break, which has been proposed for more than one PL, has never really caught on.) P.S. Perhaps we could title your comment " 'GOTO Considered Harmful' Considered Harmful" Considered Harmful.
onetwotree 11y ago
Yes. The author of the linked comment in fact complains that goto-less programming has led to the gratuitous overuse of subroutines. In the absence of modern optimizing compilers this was very inefficient. Imagine the authors horror had he witnessed the use of properties in modern object oriented languages! Of course, properties are almost always trivial for an optimizing compiler, or a JITC, to inline, and inlining is the mother of all optimizations.
Apocryphon 11y ago
K&R 2nd edition came out in 1988, after all.

GalacticDomin8r 11y ago

Having seen old complex apps written in basic, I would say use of BASIC considered harmful. You can't help but create spaghetti code.

Roboprog 11y ago

Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. The example of looking for a row of 0s that skips the current row on the first non 0 can (now) be dealt with using constructs like named break/continue statements (in things like Java or C#). (I would not be opposed to making the inner and outer loops separate functions with returns, either, though) What the author said was true at the time, but has since been dealt with by having richer control constructs for goto-less ("jump anywhere") programming.

Roboprog 11y ago
Maybe lexical scope for goto labels, rather than global symbols??? :-)

jcranmer 11y ago

It's worth noting that the coding climate has changed considerably since 1987. Modern goto-less languages, such as Java, include break and continue statements that can target any enclosing block; many of the example programs that people suggest using gotos for end up basically using these forms. It's worth pointing out that these multi-level break/continue statements allow you to build any reducible control flow graph (that is, the only thing you cannot do is construct a loop which has two entry points; incidentally, these constructs are also the best way to ensure that the optimizer gives up). Optimizers have also gotten better over the years--it would be fairly easy to transform the idiomatic find-loop pattern based on flags to the one that uses the goto. There's also been a shift to using basic block-based optimizers, which means that the optimizer sees a loop statement and something built entirely of gotos as completely identical anyways. So, in the end, the goto debate is moot: there's no real difference in performance either way these days, and we've renamed the goto instruction to break which sidesteps most of the puritanical section of the debate.

sklogic 11y ago
There is a still a noticeable difference in performance of a `goto`-based FSM implementation and a switch-in-a-loop one. And there is a huge performance difference between a computed `goto` implementation of a VM vs. a switch-based one. Break is not a substitute for any of this use cases.
- 0x07c0 11y ago
  In my current project I use both. Direct coded lexer and a vm using gnu-c &&label.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  Couldn't one just macro an implementation of such things that use goto underneath?
  - sklogic 11y ago
    Of course. But only if goto was not removed from the underlying language.

stepvhen 11y ago

In a letter titled "On a Somewhat Disappointing Correspondence"[1][2], Dijkstra replied to this and other reponses, the larger one titled "'"GOTO Considered Harmful" Considered Harmful' Considered Harmful?" It is rather tongue in cheek. [1]: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd10xx/EWD1009.PDF http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd10xx/EWD1009.PDF [2]: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1009.html http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EW... (transcription)

langarto 11y ago
Thanks for posting Dijkstra answer. I had read it a lot of time ago and was going to post it myself. Even keeping in mind that it was written with tongue in cheek, Mr Dijkstra does sound like a bit of a jerk in this paper. Also, I think that this response actually validates Rubin's thesis: Dijkstra points to a number of bugs in the second and third versions of the program (i.e., those without GOTO), proving that the GOTO-less version is not only shorter, but easier to get right.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  He is a jerk. That was consistent in much of what I read. Very elitist.

mannykannot 11y ago

A large part of the debate that followed the publication of "GOTO Considered Harmful", and which smolders to this day, concerned whether there are any corner cases where gotos are the better choice. This rather pedantic issue is largely beside Dijkstra's main point, which was that it is infeasible to analyze programs for correctness unless they use simple, nested, control and flow structures. Of course, Dijkstra himself bears some of the responsibility for this diversion, through his choice of a click-baity title. He was probably right in this choice however, as the paper got enough attention to have a significant and lasting influence (though we are not doing analytical verification to anywhere near the extent he demanded.)

0x07c0 11y ago
They are not corner cases, it rely depend on what domain you work in. Currently working on "tooling" for HPC application, and use goto all the time. Any form of system programming in c will probably have lots of goto's. Error handling being the most usual. Also some algos express them self best using goto's. And of course asm, try writing anything in asm without jumps :-)
- mannykannot 11y ago
  I think I am on safe ground in saying that Dijkstra was well aware of the use of jumps in asm, but that is beside the point he was making in the body of the paper - as opposed to the point, taken from the title of the paper, that most of the argument has been about.
  - 0x07c0 11y ago
    Well the part about asm was obviously a joke, control structures are nice to have. My point was that in many domains goto's are useful, both for solving problems, getting performance and for code clarity.

vmorgulis 11y ago

Github says 11 494 gotos in the kernel: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=goto https://github.com/torvalds/linux/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=go...

gaius 11y ago

Computed GOTOs and GOSUBs are very underrated in modern programming.

alejohausner 11y ago

GOTO (considered harmful)^n, where n is an even positive integer

fabulist 11y ago
Or zero.