2 ms·

Still, can't you see it from their side? I'm pretty sure if I were running North Korea or Iran I'd be doing whatever I needed to do to acquire a credible nucle

by gozur88 11y ago

Still, can't you see it from their side? I'm pretty sure if I were running North Korea or Iran I'd be doing whatever I needed to do to acquire a credible nuclear deterrent. Particularly after Libya. When the US invaded Iraq the Libyans decided the best way to avoid the same fate was to accede to demands from the West. They gave up their nuclear program, paid compensation for Lockerbie, and generally stopped messing with other countries. And when it was convenient, we (mostly the UK and France, but the US too) provided the air power to overthrow the Libyan government. Kadaffi himself was tortured to death. If you're Kim Jong Un, what lesson do you draw from that sequence of events?

mikeash 11y ago
Sure, I can see it from their side. What you say makes complete sense. But I'm not on their side. I'm sure it hasn't been handled well, but the answer isn't to just welcome them into the community of nuclear nations and applaud every time they conduct a weapons test.
- gozur88 11y ago
  Well, okay, I agree with that, but when we go to other countries in the region and say "We'd really like your help in putting pressure on North Korea to give up its missile program," we have to have an answer ready when they say "You have lots of nuclear-tipped ICBMs. If you're not willing to give up your weapons, why should we help you strong-arm the Koreans into giving up theirs?"
  - krapp 11y ago
    I think the argument can be made on behalf of their own rational self-interests. Do other countries in the region feel safer with North Korea maintaining a nuclear arsenal? Japan and South Korea probably do not. Would China prefer that North Korea have long-range nuclear strike capabilities that guarantee the US can never leave the hemisphere, and that NK can effectively challenge their political authority in the region? Probably not. All things being equal, the choice is between the US' nukes, and the US' nukes aimed at NK's nukes, and NK's nukes aimed who knows where (not necessarily just as the US.)
  - JabavuAdams 11y ago
    Other countries in the region (with the exception of China) want DPRK to be constrained. It's not like we need to convince them. As mentioned in one of the other replies -- sure, I can't fault a government for wanting to pursue nukes and space-launch capability. History has shown that you're either a US-ally, a nuclear power, or largely powerless over your country's destiny. That doesn't mean I want adversaries to have the same tech as I do. So, the condemnations make perfect sense. It's all a game.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    The answer to that question is easy: "those guys are nuts, and there's no reason to think those nukes can't be pointed at you." There hasn't been much trouble getting other countries to put pressure on North Korea. The trouble is that North Korea is already so isolated that it just doesn't work. Their whole national philosophy is based around self reliance.
    - progressive_dad 11y ago
      Juche (Chosŏn'gŭl: 주체; hancha: 主體; RR: Chuch'e; Korean pronunciation: [tɕutɕʰe]), usually translated as "self-reliance", is the official political ideology of North Korea, described by the regime as Kim Il-Sung's "original, brilliant and revolutionary contribution to national and international thought".
    - gozur88 11y ago
      >There hasn't been much trouble getting other countries to put pressure on North Korea. ...other countries except China, the important one. North Korean products (legal plus things like drugs and counterfeit cash and weapons) are shipped overland and out through China's ports. The Chinese sell oil to North Korea at below market rates. Plus luxury items for the people in charge. If China decided to play ball the North Korean government could not survive.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        China still pressures them. Maybe not enough, but it seems like North Korea is too willing to call their bluff. China doesn't want North Korea to collapse, and that has little to do with whataboutism regarding the US's nuclear arsenal.

by gozur88 11y ago

mikeash 11y ago

Sure, I can see it from their side. What you say makes complete sense. But I'm not on their side. I'm sure it hasn't been handled well, but the answer isn't to just welcome them into the community of nuclear nations and applaud every time they conduct a weapons test.

gozur88 11y ago
Well, okay, I agree with that, but when we go to other countries in the region and say "We'd really like your help in putting pressure on North Korea to give up its missile program," we have to have an answer ready when they say "You have lots of nuclear-tipped ICBMs. If you're not willing to give up your weapons, why should we help you strong-arm the Koreans into giving up theirs?"
- krapp 11y ago
  I think the argument can be made on behalf of their own rational self-interests. Do other countries in the region feel safer with North Korea maintaining a nuclear arsenal? Japan and South Korea probably do not. Would China prefer that North Korea have long-range nuclear strike capabilities that guarantee the US can never leave the hemisphere, and that NK can effectively challenge their political authority in the region? Probably not. All things being equal, the choice is between the US' nukes, and the US' nukes aimed at NK's nukes, and NK's nukes aimed who knows where (not necessarily just as the US.)
- JabavuAdams 11y ago
  Other countries in the region (with the exception of China) want DPRK to be constrained. It's not like we need to convince them. As mentioned in one of the other replies -- sure, I can't fault a government for wanting to pursue nukes and space-launch capability. History has shown that you're either a US-ally, a nuclear power, or largely powerless over your country's destiny. That doesn't mean I want adversaries to have the same tech as I do. So, the condemnations make perfect sense. It's all a game.
- mikeash 11y ago
  The answer to that question is easy: "those guys are nuts, and there's no reason to think those nukes can't be pointed at you." There hasn't been much trouble getting other countries to put pressure on North Korea. The trouble is that North Korea is already so isolated that it just doesn't work. Their whole national philosophy is based around self reliance.
  - progressive_dad 11y ago
    Juche (Chosŏn'gŭl: 주체; hancha: 主體; RR: Chuch'e; Korean pronunciation: [tɕutɕʰe]), usually translated as "self-reliance", is the official political ideology of North Korea, described by the regime as Kim Il-Sung's "original, brilliant and revolutionary contribution to national and international thought".
  - gozur88 11y ago
    >There hasn't been much trouble getting other countries to put pressure on North Korea. ...other countries except China, the important one. North Korean products (legal plus things like drugs and counterfeit cash and weapons) are shipped overland and out through China's ports. The Chinese sell oil to North Korea at below market rates. Plus luxury items for the people in charge. If China decided to play ball the North Korean government could not survive.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      China still pressures them. Maybe not enough, but it seems like North Korea is too willing to call their bluff. China doesn't want North Korea to collapse, and that has little to do with whataboutism regarding the US's nuclear arsenal.