5 ms·

> “They were surprised,” he said. “But I told them I’d rather die in my country than die outside in a strange country.” Well since most of the so called Syrian

by tdkl 11y ago

> “They were surprised,” he said. “But I told them I’d rather die in my country than die outside in a strange country.” Well since most of the so called Syrian (and many other countries too) "refugees" are healthy young men, I really don't know what are they doing in EU (expecting wellfare money probably) instead of fighting for their own country for better tomorrow (what all young men did in their age around the world since dawn of time). Europe as it is today didn't came for free.

jahnu 11y ago
> (expecting wellfare money probably) instead of fighting for their own country for better tomorrow Hacker News: Taking armchair coaching to a whole new level. Sometimes I despair at the lack of empathy that is possible.
- tdkl 11y ago
  I'll add armchair coaching from someone in a small EU country which still has its language because his both grandfathers didn't bail and ran away, for which I'm forever grateful of the responsibility they took.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - wfn 11y ago
    Whatever one's musings on the status and the notion of ethnic states etc., I don't think the situation is comparable. In my (our?) case (Baltic states), there was (more of) a concrete "bad Other", whereas in Syria a proxy war (or an array thereof) is taking place. One can perceive it as multiple groups of interest fighting, with the backing of multiple actors (and the background struggle of the extent of those actors and their backing is what might determine the outcome, if any). It is easier to grok a meaningful armed struggle (which one may partake in, hypothetically) - after all, it is tangible and concrete, and there's always a bad side (isn't there), etc.; but in the completely messed up state of affairs that people in Syria find themselves in, one can't but deduce that they are in a war zone with no certain optimal equilibrium which one can attempt to bring the future to. And that is really a different picture altogether, I would think.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- bsg75 11y ago
  From the article: > He arrived in Belgium with this in mind: “I was expecting them to give me a house, a good job, so I could have a better life. This is what I was dreaming about.” It's hard to emphasize with someone expecting handouts, vs those who are fleeing true horrors.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Versus? Why do you think the two are incompatible? This is a guy who has lost three brothers, amidst a civil war that still has been killing more than a thousand of civilians per month. How much horror do you need to empathize?
    - bsg75 11y ago
      Because having not received what he wanted, this man wants to return to Iraq of his own accord.
      - icebraining 11y ago
        There were some fish, still alive, who were being cooked in a frying pan in boiling oil. One of the fish said, "Brothers, let us flee from this place, so that we will not perish." Then they all at the same time jumped out of the frying pan and fell into the burning coals. Stricken thus by even greater pain than before, they cursed the plan they had adopted, and said, "By how much more terrible a death are we now going to die." -- Laurentius Abstemius
        bsg75 11y ago
        Finland does not exactly fit either of Bevilaqua's examples there.
        icebraining 11y ago
        Not for you and me, but this man prefers to live in Iraq than in Finland. After all, you and I are not expected to have people dressed as the KKK throwing rocks at us: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/finland/11890584/Finnish-government-condemns-racist-attack-on-refugees-in-Lahti.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/finland/118...
cgio 11y ago
"Strange countries" fight their war, allegedly for their interests, but in reality not leaving much for them to do or diminishing the impact of their actions. For those who wish to live under more secular regimes, Europe is a better bet to take. Even if European forces prevail, the best they can expect is a bad imitation of ideals with lots of colonial "lifestyle". Furthermore, quite a few are healthy young men with healthy little children and wives.
sulam 11y ago
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2016/feb/04/drone-footage-homs-syria-utter-devastation-video?CMP=share_btn_tw http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2016/feb/04/drone-foo...
threeseed 11y ago
So you actually think that the Syrian people have any chance against the Russian-backed Syrian government. You do undrestand that the Russians are ruthless and have no qualms about taking out civilians and anyone else that gets in their way. And actually most of the people from Syria are genuine refugees. They are fleeing a brutal civil war. But of course would love to know what you would do in this situation. I am sure you would be quite happy fighting, dying the next day all to achieve absolutely nothing.
- vetinari 11y ago
  80% of Syrian population lives in Syrian government controlled territory. Those Alawites and Christian living on ISIS-controlled territory on the other hand...
  - _nedR 11y ago
    >80% of Syrian population lives in Syrian government controlled territory. Citation, please.
- jqm 11y ago
  My understanding is that there are a relatively small proportion of "Syrians" fighting against the Syrian government.
thesimon 11y ago
>what are they doing in EU [...] instead of fighting for their own country for better tomorrow (what all young men did in their age around the world since dawn of time) Yeah, same as the people being persecuted by the Nazis in WW2. They should've just fought, the people leaving to other countries were really stupid. When deciding between a high possibility to die in the near future by staying in Syria and a low possibility to die soon by leaving the country, everyone obviously picks the high possibility because that seems more appealing. /s And because you are talking about the fact that only healthy young man are fleeing: If you have the possibility to send family members to Europe: Who do you send? The 20-year old healthy male or the 85-year old grandma? Edit: (In case it wasn't obvious from the writing style or you don't know /s, it marks sarcasm)
- DominikR 11y ago
  > Yeah, same as the people being persecuted by the Nazis in WW2. Actually the Nazis could only be defeated because not everyone ran away like a traitor. Millions died fighting the Nazi regime. You should show more respect towards them instead of painting them as stupid.
  - tluyben2 11y ago
    If you run you are a traitor? What bullshit is that? If a strong (far stronger and organized than you) force is bent on eradicating you flee and then figure out how you can help. The solution to the Jewish problem as they put it was not a fair fight that would have been helped by even more of them being killed. Most of them did not die fighting: they died without even the chance to fight. Traitors...
  - thesimon 11y ago
    >You should show more respect towards them instead of painting them as stupid. Maybe you didn't see the /s
    - DominikR 11y ago
      I'm pretty sure you edited the /s in there after my comment, but your comment makes even less sense with the added sarcasm. What's the case you are making here? Before I understood it as you defending the young males all fleeing the country because it's safer and all.
DasIch 11y ago
The trip to Europe is incredibly dangerous, it's much safer for the young men to come first to find a way to help the rest of the family to flee more safely. Germany until recently had a program specifically for that. Additionally men are drafted by the Syrian government. In other words there are areas in Syria that are fairly safe for children, women and the elderly that aren't all that safe to be in, if you're a men and have no means to escape the draft. All of that combined means that you have a bias towards male refugees, especially when it comes to images you see in the media of refugees fleeing with boats.

by tdkl 11y ago

jahnu 11y ago

> (expecting wellfare money probably) instead of fighting for their own country for better tomorrow Hacker News: Taking armchair coaching to a whole new level. Sometimes I despair at the lack of empathy that is possible.

tdkl 11y ago
I'll add armchair coaching from someone in a small EU country which still has its language because his both grandfathers didn't bail and ran away, for which I'm forever grateful of the responsibility they took.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- wfn 11y ago
  Whatever one's musings on the status and the notion of ethnic states etc., I don't think the situation is comparable. In my (our?) case (Baltic states), there was (more of) a concrete "bad Other", whereas in Syria a proxy war (or an array thereof) is taking place. One can perceive it as multiple groups of interest fighting, with the backing of multiple actors (and the background struggle of the extent of those actors and their backing is what might determine the outcome, if any). It is easier to grok a meaningful armed struggle (which one may partake in, hypothetically) - after all, it is tangible and concrete, and there's always a bad side (isn't there), etc.; but in the completely messed up state of affairs that people in Syria find themselves in, one can't but deduce that they are in a war zone with no certain optimal equilibrium which one can attempt to bring the future to. And that is really a different picture altogether, I would think.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
bsg75 11y ago
From the article: > He arrived in Belgium with this in mind: “I was expecting them to give me a house, a good job, so I could have a better life. This is what I was dreaming about.” It's hard to emphasize with someone expecting handouts, vs those who are fleeing true horrors.
- icebraining 11y ago
  Versus? Why do you think the two are incompatible? This is a guy who has lost three brothers, amidst a civil war that still has been killing more than a thousand of civilians per month. How much horror do you need to empathize?
  - bsg75 11y ago
    Because having not received what he wanted, this man wants to return to Iraq of his own accord.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      There were some fish, still alive, who were being cooked in a frying pan in boiling oil. One of the fish said, "Brothers, let us flee from this place, so that we will not perish." Then they all at the same time jumped out of the frying pan and fell into the burning coals. Stricken thus by even greater pain than before, they cursed the plan they had adopted, and said, "By how much more terrible a death are we now going to die." -- Laurentius Abstemius
      - bsg75 11y ago
        Finland does not exactly fit either of Bevilaqua's examples there.
        icebraining 11y ago
        Not for you and me, but this man prefers to live in Iraq than in Finland. After all, you and I are not expected to have people dressed as the KKK throwing rocks at us: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/finland/11890584/Finnish-government-condemns-racist-attack-on-refugees-in-Lahti.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/finland/118...

cgio 11y ago

"Strange countries" fight their war, allegedly for their interests, but in reality not leaving much for them to do or diminishing the impact of their actions. For those who wish to live under more secular regimes, Europe is a better bet to take. Even if European forces prevail, the best they can expect is a bad imitation of ideals with lots of colonial "lifestyle". Furthermore, quite a few are healthy young men with healthy little children and wives.

sulam 11y ago

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2016/feb/04/drone-footage-homs-syria-utter-devastation-video?CMP=share_btn_tw http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2016/feb/04/drone-foo...

threeseed 11y ago

So you actually think that the Syrian people have any chance against the Russian-backed Syrian government. You do undrestand that the Russians are ruthless and have no qualms about taking out civilians and anyone else that gets in their way. And actually most of the people from Syria are genuine refugees. They are fleeing a brutal civil war. But of course would love to know what you would do in this situation. I am sure you would be quite happy fighting, dying the next day all to achieve absolutely nothing.

vetinari 11y ago
80% of Syrian population lives in Syrian government controlled territory. Those Alawites and Christian living on ISIS-controlled territory on the other hand...
- _nedR 11y ago
  >80% of Syrian population lives in Syrian government controlled territory. Citation, please.
jqm 11y ago
My understanding is that there are a relatively small proportion of "Syrians" fighting against the Syrian government.

thesimon 11y ago

>what are they doing in EU [...] instead of fighting for their own country for better tomorrow (what all young men did in their age around the world since dawn of time) Yeah, same as the people being persecuted by the Nazis in WW2. They should've just fought, the people leaving to other countries were really stupid. When deciding between a high possibility to die in the near future by staying in Syria and a low possibility to die soon by leaving the country, everyone obviously picks the high possibility because that seems more appealing. /s And because you are talking about the fact that only healthy young man are fleeing: If you have the possibility to send family members to Europe: Who do you send? The 20-year old healthy male or the 85-year old grandma? Edit: (In case it wasn't obvious from the writing style or you don't know /s, it marks sarcasm)

DominikR 11y ago
> Yeah, same as the people being persecuted by the Nazis in WW2. Actually the Nazis could only be defeated because not everyone ran away like a traitor. Millions died fighting the Nazi regime. You should show more respect towards them instead of painting them as stupid.
- tluyben2 11y ago
  If you run you are a traitor? What bullshit is that? If a strong (far stronger and organized than you) force is bent on eradicating you flee and then figure out how you can help. The solution to the Jewish problem as they put it was not a fair fight that would have been helped by even more of them being killed. Most of them did not die fighting: they died without even the chance to fight. Traitors...
- thesimon 11y ago
  >You should show more respect towards them instead of painting them as stupid. Maybe you didn't see the /s
  - DominikR 11y ago
    I'm pretty sure you edited the /s in there after my comment, but your comment makes even less sense with the added sarcasm. What's the case you are making here? Before I understood it as you defending the young males all fleeing the country because it's safer and all.

DasIch 11y ago

The trip to Europe is incredibly dangerous, it's much safer for the young men to come first to find a way to help the rest of the family to flee more safely. Germany until recently had a program specifically for that. Additionally men are drafted by the Syrian government. In other words there are areas in Syria that are fairly safe for children, women and the elderly that aren't all that safe to be in, if you're a men and have no means to escape the draft. All of that combined means that you have a bias towards male refugees, especially when it comes to images you see in the media of refugees fleeing with boats.