4 ms·

I don't recall hearing that much in the context of Eich, but it certainly is a common go-to argument more recently among those who want to see people punished f

I don't recall hearing that much in the context of Eich, but it certainly is a common go-to argument more recently among those who want to see people punished for having incorrect political views. It came up a lot when Strangeloop kicked out Curtis Yarvin, for example.

Karunamon 11y ago
I said it back then and I'll say it here: There's a difference between "having a political view" (thinking that non-heterosexual marriages are icky) and taking positive action to prevent others from having equal rights (donating money to a lobbying/social engineering group) One is a thought, the other is an action. Punishing people for unknowable bad thoughts is an Orwellian nightmare. Punishing people for visible bad actions is how society moves forward.
- 13thLetter 11y ago
  So people are allowed to have unpopular opinions as long as they don't, you know, tell anyone else about them or anything? Sorry, but that's unacceptable.
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    So personally involved people aren't allowed to voice displeasure at those who have taken positive steps to harm them? Did you completely ignore the differentiation between thought and action that I just laid out?
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - greenrd 11y ago
    What would you propose we do - jail people who call for boycotts? Jail people who criticise corporations? I'll spell this out very simply: the same laws and social standards that make it OK for you to criticise them, make it OK for them to criticise Mozilla.
    - 13thLetter 11y ago
      And they also make it OK for me to criticize the people who are criticizing Mozilla, and for those people to criticize me for criticizing the people who are criticizing Mozilla, and etc. So now that we've gotten that out of our system, we can realize that there's a difference between being criticized and losing one's job because of one's political opinions, and a society where the second thing happens is a society that has real problems.
      - Karunamon 11y ago
        Both Eich and Mozilla characterize his leaving as voluntary. Now whether that's the case is somewhat disputed, but there's no evidence to suggest any other conclusion. And for the second or third time this thread, having an opinion and taking an action are two different things. Please address that rather than just repeating your original post. Society has decided that denying people basic rights is what's "unacceptable" and chooses to punish those that act in that fashion. And it's not like there's any other explanation for the donation either... the group he donated to was a single purpose lobbying campaign.
        13thLetter 11y ago
        > Both Eich and Mozilla characterize his leaving as voluntary. Now whether that's the case is somewhat disputed, but there's no evidence to suggest any other conclusion. Voluntary, in the sense that when you get mugged you can choose between your money or your life? For some reason I suspect Eich did not leave the position he had just taken because he wanted to spend more time with his family. And "voluntary" or not, somebody leaving a position in a private industry because of a mob that's intolerant of his unrelated political views is nothing to celebrate: in fact, it's a symbol of the wild polarization that is destroying this country. > Society has decided that denying people basic rights is what's "unacceptable" and chooses to punish those that act in that fashion. "Society" has decided this, has it? When did that happen? Last I heard, there was a lot of arguing going on about that very point. > And it's not like there's any other explanation for the donation either... the group he donated to was a single purpose lobbying campaign. And as I stated previously, "you can hold any opinion you want as long as you don't tell anyone about it" is unacceptable.
- wyclif 11y ago
  "Having a political view" contra SSM might not only take the form of "non-heterosexual marriages are icky." Engaging in caricature doesn't help advance the discussion of PC in the workplace. People might believe that homosexual marriage isn't morally or ethically legit. That a company or large numbers of people disagree doesn't mean the people that have these views should be punished for thoughtcrime or for expressing their opinions, or donating to a non-PC cause.

Karunamon 11y ago

I said it back then and I'll say it here: There's a difference between "having a political view" (thinking that non-heterosexual marriages are icky) and taking positive action to prevent others from having equal rights (donating money to a lobbying/social engineering group) One is a thought, the other is an action. Punishing people for unknowable bad thoughts is an Orwellian nightmare. Punishing people for visible bad actions is how society moves forward.

13thLetter 11y ago
So people are allowed to have unpopular opinions as long as they don't, you know, tell anyone else about them or anything? Sorry, but that's unacceptable.
- Karunamon 11y ago
  So personally involved people aren't allowed to voice displeasure at those who have taken positive steps to harm them? Did you completely ignore the differentiation between thought and action that I just laid out?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- greenrd 11y ago
  What would you propose we do - jail people who call for boycotts? Jail people who criticise corporations? I'll spell this out very simply: the same laws and social standards that make it OK for you to criticise them, make it OK for them to criticise Mozilla.
  - 13thLetter 11y ago
    And they also make it OK for me to criticize the people who are criticizing Mozilla, and for those people to criticize me for criticizing the people who are criticizing Mozilla, and etc. So now that we've gotten that out of our system, we can realize that there's a difference between being criticized and losing one's job because of one's political opinions, and a society where the second thing happens is a society that has real problems.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      Both Eich and Mozilla characterize his leaving as voluntary. Now whether that's the case is somewhat disputed, but there's no evidence to suggest any other conclusion. And for the second or third time this thread, having an opinion and taking an action are two different things. Please address that rather than just repeating your original post. Society has decided that denying people basic rights is what's "unacceptable" and chooses to punish those that act in that fashion. And it's not like there's any other explanation for the donation either... the group he donated to was a single purpose lobbying campaign.
      - 13thLetter 11y ago
        > Both Eich and Mozilla characterize his leaving as voluntary. Now whether that's the case is somewhat disputed, but there's no evidence to suggest any other conclusion. Voluntary, in the sense that when you get mugged you can choose between your money or your life? For some reason I suspect Eich did not leave the position he had just taken because he wanted to spend more time with his family. And "voluntary" or not, somebody leaving a position in a private industry because of a mob that's intolerant of his unrelated political views is nothing to celebrate: in fact, it's a symbol of the wild polarization that is destroying this country. > Society has decided that denying people basic rights is what's "unacceptable" and chooses to punish those that act in that fashion. "Society" has decided this, has it? When did that happen? Last I heard, there was a lot of arguing going on about that very point. > And it's not like there's any other explanation for the donation either... the group he donated to was a single purpose lobbying campaign. And as I stated previously, "you can hold any opinion you want as long as you don't tell anyone about it" is unacceptable.
wyclif 11y ago
"Having a political view" contra SSM might not only take the form of "non-heterosexual marriages are icky." Engaging in caricature doesn't help advance the discussion of PC in the workplace. People might believe that homosexual marriage isn't morally or ethically legit. That a company or large numbers of people disagree doesn't mean the people that have these views should be punished for thoughtcrime or for expressing their opinions, or donating to a non-PC cause.