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> Either you believe it is okay to discriminate against someone on the basis of their skin color or you don't. In most anti-discrimination policy discussions,

by bmh_ca 11y ago

> Either you believe it is okay to discriminate against someone on the basis of their skin color or you don't. In most anti-discrimination policy discussions, the question being asked is not what colour ones skin is. It is whether the person belongs to an identifiable group that has suffered systemic prejudice. The ordinary intention of anti-discrimination is to rectify past and prevent future wrongs, and in particular to break cycles of stereotype, poverty, and crime. Colour of skin is incidental to the formula, being an identifiable group. The primary consideration for preferential bias is belonging to a group that has suffered prejudice. One could as readily substitute for skin colour those discriminations founded upon language, hair colour, sexual orientation, height, and body shape, among many others. The factor itself is not an entitlement to preference; it is the history of prejudice and prospect of systemic improvement that determines suitability for discrimination. The argument that white people are being discriminated against based on a formula that rectifies past wrongs and undoes future ones belies a misunderstanding of the purpose, benefit, and impact. One may only come to this conclusion by discounting those past and future wrongs that have been committed and will continue to be committed by a system with inherent biases.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
striking 11y ago
> The argument that white people are being discriminated against based on a formula that rectifies past wrongs and undoes future ones belies a misunderstanding of the purpose, benefit, and impact. That's perfectly absurd. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. How do we measure wrongs? How do we "undo future wrongs"? I can't. Totally cannot. 100% can't deal with your argument.
- bmh_ca 11y ago
  > I can't. Totally cannot. 100% can't deal with your argument. I find it telling that you think it is my argument. What I wrote is neither mine nor an argument. It is a description of a theory. > Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. Not all discriminations are equal. To argue that all discrimination is discrimination is to give equivalence to police murdering for traffic violations and being denied the pole position on a job application. Both are wrong, but there are quantitative differences – they can be measured. > How do we measure wrongs? How do we "undo future wrongs"? We can measure the effect of discrimination by the number of people affected, and the impact a discrimination has on an individual. It's not an unknown problem; statisticians measure it on jobs, income, applications, promotions, employment types. The data exists or can be gathered, and it can ascribed monetary value ("damages" in law). No formula will be ideal in all cases, but that is not an excusable barrier. Societies with affirmative action have in essence determined, whether founded or not, that the aggregate of prejudice against classes of victims outweighs the aggregate prejudice of attempting to correct it. If you want to discredit the theory you must first understand that it is a widely published and peer reviewed theory of many facets of society and not just an argument from some guy on the internet. The theory is founded in the philosophy of law, and touches on many other aspects ranging from the relationship between culture and economics through criminology.
  - malandrew 11y ago
    That same society at a different time determined slavery, jim crow laws and other prejudicial treatments were once okay just as it did affirmative action. An appeal to authority or populism doesn't make it good or right. It merely makes it lawful and/or socially acceptable. There are many widely published and peer reviewed theories that turned out to be wrong after implementing them and empirically seeing that they are imperfect. There are scientific theories and there are non-scientific theories and the one you've put forth is squarely in the camp of non-scientific theory, which typically are hypotheses that lack the ability to be disproved. I would like to think we can do better than replacing one system of prejudices with another. We've seen the pendulum swing both ways enough time now to better predict where the ideas contributing to momentum of the pendulum will lead to an over-correction and novel injustices.
  - striking 11y ago
    I didn't think that first quote was your argument, I just thought it was the dumbest thing you said. I think it's silly that you believe that past wrongs can be rectified and that future wrongs are definitely going to happen, and that that invalidates the argument you presented about discrimination against white people not existing. Theory or argument, that's pedantry. > Not all discriminations are equal. Never said that. I was implying that anything that was discrimination was wrong. Are you arguing the opposite? > We can measure the effect [etc] and the impact [etc] and it can ascribed monetary value [etc]. No formula will be ideal in all cases, but that is not an excusable barrier. [emphasis mine] You'll have to inform me then why there's debate on the ballpark percentage of the wage gap or even that it exists in general, just as an example. (not arguing for or against, but that there is a debate) And it is perfectly excusable for someone not to take action, or not to execute a very big action, if it is not the correct action, unless you think justice is necessarily coexistent with wrongful imprisonment. And how do you pick who gets affirmative action anyway? I'm a Polish immigrant. My ancestors have been fucked 5 ways from Tuesday by just about every major happening in Europe. It was still 1989 when communism fell (only 27 years ago), and it left desolation and despair in its wake. Coming to the US, my parents and I had just about nothing. And better yet, I'm not going to claim I deserve something. Because the world dealt me and everyone a shitty hand and the best I can do is play it, no matter the odds. Even if someone got a better hand than I did.
malandrew 11y ago
So you're telling me that it's okay to tell someone, X, from group A that they are being disadvantaged in favor of someone else, Y, from group B because Y belongs to group B and because years ago someone, M, from group A unrelated to X disadvantaged someone, N, from group B unrelated to Y. How is this right? X isn't responsible for any wrongdoing committed by M or others like M, so why should X suffer the consequences? It's fine to rectify past wrongs when X is responsible for the past wrongs, but guilt by identity association with M is absurd. I'm mixed-race mostly caucasian that immigrated to the US from South America in the 1980s but look vanilla white to most. Please explain to me what past wrong me and others like me are guilty of here? I am aware and fully understand the purpose and anticipated benefit/impact. A question worth asking is if those that propose a "formula that rectifies past wrongs and undoes futures ones" understand how that formula will produce present wrongs and foster unintended future ones? After all, the road to hell is paved with good intentions[0]. You're merely converting one system with inherent biases for another with inherent biases. That is a non-solution the problem[1] you purport to fix. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with... [1] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=problem http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=problem

by bmh_ca 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

striking 11y ago

> The argument that white people are being discriminated against based on a formula that rectifies past wrongs and undoes future ones belies a misunderstanding of the purpose, benefit, and impact. That's perfectly absurd. Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. How do we measure wrongs? How do we "undo future wrongs"? I can't. Totally cannot. 100% can't deal with your argument.

bmh_ca 11y ago
> I can't. Totally cannot. 100% can't deal with your argument. I find it telling that you think it is my argument. What I wrote is neither mine nor an argument. It is a description of a theory. > Discrimination is discrimination is discrimination. Not all discriminations are equal. To argue that all discrimination is discrimination is to give equivalence to police murdering for traffic violations and being denied the pole position on a job application. Both are wrong, but there are quantitative differences – they can be measured. > How do we measure wrongs? How do we "undo future wrongs"? We can measure the effect of discrimination by the number of people affected, and the impact a discrimination has on an individual. It's not an unknown problem; statisticians measure it on jobs, income, applications, promotions, employment types. The data exists or can be gathered, and it can ascribed monetary value ("damages" in law). No formula will be ideal in all cases, but that is not an excusable barrier. Societies with affirmative action have in essence determined, whether founded or not, that the aggregate of prejudice against classes of victims outweighs the aggregate prejudice of attempting to correct it. If you want to discredit the theory you must first understand that it is a widely published and peer reviewed theory of many facets of society and not just an argument from some guy on the internet. The theory is founded in the philosophy of law, and touches on many other aspects ranging from the relationship between culture and economics through criminology.
- malandrew 11y ago
  That same society at a different time determined slavery, jim crow laws and other prejudicial treatments were once okay just as it did affirmative action. An appeal to authority or populism doesn't make it good or right. It merely makes it lawful and/or socially acceptable. There are many widely published and peer reviewed theories that turned out to be wrong after implementing them and empirically seeing that they are imperfect. There are scientific theories and there are non-scientific theories and the one you've put forth is squarely in the camp of non-scientific theory, which typically are hypotheses that lack the ability to be disproved. I would like to think we can do better than replacing one system of prejudices with another. We've seen the pendulum swing both ways enough time now to better predict where the ideas contributing to momentum of the pendulum will lead to an over-correction and novel injustices.
- striking 11y ago
  I didn't think that first quote was your argument, I just thought it was the dumbest thing you said. I think it's silly that you believe that past wrongs can be rectified and that future wrongs are definitely going to happen, and that that invalidates the argument you presented about discrimination against white people not existing. Theory or argument, that's pedantry. > Not all discriminations are equal. Never said that. I was implying that anything that was discrimination was wrong. Are you arguing the opposite? > We can measure the effect [etc] and the impact [etc] and it can ascribed monetary value [etc]. No formula will be ideal in all cases, but that is not an excusable barrier. [emphasis mine] You'll have to inform me then why there's debate on the ballpark percentage of the wage gap or even that it exists in general, just as an example. (not arguing for or against, but that there is a debate) And it is perfectly excusable for someone not to take action, or not to execute a very big action, if it is not the correct action, unless you think justice is necessarily coexistent with wrongful imprisonment. And how do you pick who gets affirmative action anyway? I'm a Polish immigrant. My ancestors have been fucked 5 ways from Tuesday by just about every major happening in Europe. It was still 1989 when communism fell (only 27 years ago), and it left desolation and despair in its wake. Coming to the US, my parents and I had just about nothing. And better yet, I'm not going to claim I deserve something. Because the world dealt me and everyone a shitty hand and the best I can do is play it, no matter the odds. Even if someone got a better hand than I did.

malandrew 11y ago

So you're telling me that it's okay to tell someone, X, from group A that they are being disadvantaged in favor of someone else, Y, from group B because Y belongs to group B and because years ago someone, M, from group A unrelated to X disadvantaged someone, N, from group B unrelated to Y. How is this right? X isn't responsible for any wrongdoing committed by M or others like M, so why should X suffer the consequences? It's fine to rectify past wrongs when X is responsible for the past wrongs, but guilt by identity association with M is absurd. I'm mixed-race mostly caucasian that immigrated to the US from South America in the 1980s but look vanilla white to most. Please explain to me what past wrong me and others like me are guilty of here? I am aware and fully understand the purpose and anticipated benefit/impact. A question worth asking is if those that propose a "formula that rectifies past wrongs and undoes futures ones" understand how that formula will produce present wrongs and foster unintended future ones? After all, the road to hell is paved with good intentions[0]. You're merely converting one system with inherent biases for another with inherent biases. That is a non-solution the problem[1] you purport to fix. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with... [1] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=problem http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=problem