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I would expect more from a tech company that is supposed to be by programmers for programmers. Programmers are abstract thinkers, and it's disgusting to see th

• anotherc 11y ago
  > Programmers are abstract thinkers, and it's disgusting to see them lower themselves and adopt the semantics and memes of obvious cultural constructs like race. You have to be joking. This is sarcasm, right?
  • dracht 11y ago
    There is a lot of overlap between the HN user base and the delusional SJW ilk that is running Github into the ground. People here are defending the blatantly racist sentiments mentioned in the article. They are performing some serious mental gymnastics to both hold the belief that race is an irrelevant social construct and that too many people of one race (cough whiteys cough) in one place is bad.
    • dang 11y ago
      There's a lot of overlap between the HN user base and both sides of this argument, because the tech community itself is divided and HN reflects that. Each side feels that the other is over-represented here, but that's probably just cognitive bias.
  • blueflow 11y ago
    From my view, race seems arbitrary. You could also split people into blue-eyed and brown-eyed or something. It still doesn't say anything about that person. Its just that many normal persons act like its a huge difference.
    • knn 11y ago
      Many people would agree with you that race doesn't say that much about a person. However, it's quite naive to argue that racial issues are not a part of every day life. We live in a world built on racial divides and conflicts. It's obviously venerable to strive towards a non-racist society, but to do so one needs to understand the issues at hand.
      • blueflow 11y ago
        I'm refusing to accept the split between "we" and "they" based on appearance or minor biological factors. Show me a discrete situation where this results in bad decision making on my side, and I'll change my behavior.
      • 13thLetter 11y ago
        Sure, but that emphatically does not mean abandoning principles of merit and equality and letting bullies and shakedown artists run your companies, as Github and too many others are doing.
    • anotherc 11y ago
      > From my view, race seems arbitrary. You could also split people into blue-eyed and brown-eyed or something. You could pick any societal construct or experience and say it doesn't matter to you. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You could say money is just paper and ones and zeros in a database so you shouldn't have to use it but you are deluding yourself.
      • blueflow 11y ago
        Its a pretend-game anyway and i'm well aware of it. Money justifies itself because it allows trade and therefore specialization of individuals. Its required for the technological progress we already done. Same goes with Companies, Math, or most Science things. Race is used by people who want to discriminate (independent of direction) or seek justification by victim-hood (and everything derived). Both are harmful behaviors. I will not support that.
  • reitanqild 11y ago
    Why would it be? Are things really so much different where you live as compared to western Europe?
  • proc0 11y ago
    Nope. But I don't know what you're getting at. As a programmer, I just care that you write good code. In fact, I might as well be interacting with your mind across the internet, and don't even have to look at you in the face, and we will be collaborating just fine. Why does it matter for someone who deals with 0's and 1's what the color of the skin of your coworker is? Once again, if you're a programmer and you're swimming in abstractions and code, my coworker might as well be a robot, and I could give two shits.
    • anotherc 11y ago
      > Why does it matter for someone who deals with 0's and 1's what the color of the skin of your coworker is? It seems crazy to me that someone would have to explain this on a public forum.If you are a white male I'm sure it might be hard for you to understand why race, gender, and class matter and how they intersect with your life, your work, and that of your colleagues.
      • JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        Lets not deliberately ignore the point that was trying to be made. Its possible in this industry, to not even know the race or ethnicity of a coworker. That's a positive thing.
        • malandrew 11y ago
          Lol. So true. I had a co-worker that I talked with several times a week about technical issues via HipChat for almost a year before I met him in person and the entire time I knew nothing about him other than he was a guy or identified as a guy and he was really good at his job (we have a few trans co-workers, so I don't assume cis-male). When I finally met him, it turns out that he was on the same floor about 50 meters away despite the fact that we're at a company with 1500 engineers spread across multiple offices.
      • Khaine 11y ago
        NO IT FUCKING DOESN"T STOP WITH THIS BULLSHIT If you contribute to an open source product under then name 'anotherc', nobody cares if you are black, white, pink, male or female. All they will care about is the quality of your code Likewise at work, all that people should care about is the quality of your work, and being respectful of others. IF YOU THINK SOMEONES RACE MATTERS YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM
• exolymph 11y ago
  "We need to start learning how to simply NOT THINK about race, and NOT MENTION IT." We live in a world where this is not remotely possible. Suggesting it is the worst sort of idealism.
  • api_or_ipa 11y ago
    When is the disease distinct from the cure? At a certain point, we need to move forward and strive towards a harmonious ideal. Otherwise we delay true equality.
    • exolymph 11y ago
      I agree that we need to move forward, but I think it's better to focus on tactics that can succeed.
      • malandrew 11y ago
        What about tactics that are antagonistic and counter-productive? Isn't it about time someone asked "What could possibly go wrong?" when discussing each tactic?
  • alphapapa 11y ago
    Why? Let me apply the principle you claim to be the case in a different, ahistorical way: "'We need to start learning how to simply NOT THINK about denigrating and enslaving blacks, and NOT MENTION IT.' We live in a world where this is not remotely possible. Suggesting it is the worst sort of idealism." --some Southern slave owner, 1859 The same could be applied to historical anti-semitic movements, anti-suffrage groups--anti-anything groups, really. It can be boiled down to: "We need to start learning how to simply NOT THINK about treating other people badly because of their appearance or where they are from, and NOT MENTION IT," and people like you saying, "That's impossible. We will always be just as hateful and prejudiced as the worst of us are now. You shouldn't even suggest that it's possible to make any progress in human society." It boggles my mind that you could even think this way. But, then, people thinking and acting in unreasonable ways is the root of these problems.
• aikah 11y ago
  It has more to do with the current cultural war in USA than anything else. Like all wars it's about power, it's a power grab. "Reverse-racism" is now an acceptable ideology in the media and in the tech community, and all the social-studies crowd now get jobs as "diversity officers" in Tech companies. It isn't going to end well for some companies, that might get "disrupted" from the inside because of people pushing politics before anything else.
  • marcoperaza 11y ago
    It's a protection racket. If you don't have these worthless diversity officers, if you don't kiss Jesse Jackson's ass when he accuses you of racism, they drag you through the media with the worst implications and associations put next to your name.
    • rotw 11y ago
      That's delusional conspiracy nonsense. Seriously, take a step back and look at what you're saying.
      • marcoperaza 11y ago
        It's not some grand conspiracy. There's no secret committee toasting to their success. It's just what has happened when the press and a lot of people believe all of the vitriol that comes out of people like Jackson and Sharpton, or lesser known race-baiters in other communities. South Park did a whole episode about this phenomenon (episode titled "With apologies to Jesse Jackson"). I've been a member of multiple institutions that have fallen on the wrong end of this kind of activism. My Catholic high school has been dragged through the local media for not listing a gay marriage in the Marriages section of the alumni magazine. The inter-fraternity council at my alma mater has a speech code for offensive language and a dress code for offensive clothing, like Indian mascots. I saw the behind-the-scenes arm-twisting by the college administration to make them do it. Every big tech company has to pay the protection money here too. Jesse Jackson and his allies in Congress started saying that the tech industry was racist for not having enough black people, a totally absurd accusation because the only reason why there aren't many black employees is that there aren't many black applicants. Then he got invited to a few board meetings, extracted some donations, and went on his way.
• audessuscest 11y ago
  Looks like they trade "structure based purely on meritocracy" by "promote diversity". I don't see how this can go well. Meritocracy is important among dev and open source. And they don't care about political diversity. I can only imagine this new "culture of fear" where you can't hire white people (even woman). Skills and experiences should be the only way to choose who you hire, not race or gender. Anyway, looks like a good time to switch from github to open source solutions.
  • reitanqild 11y ago
    > Skills and experiences should be the only way to choose who you hire, not race or gender. Exactly. The issue should not be how many percent are what "race", but if companies are dumb enough to leave good programmers, managers etc waiting tables, manning the help desk etc because they doesn't fit our stereotypes. Or: If if companies does spectacularly bad hires because of political correctness.
  • DanBC 11y ago
    > Meritocracy Meritocracy is a lie. Look how broken interview processes are - definitely not meritocratic. Meritocracy is a rationalisation for "I hire people I like so long as they don't say anything idiotic during the interview". You'd get better results from having some kind of bar that candidates have to meet and then just selecting one at random and giving that person the job.
    • mjolk 11y ago
      How do bad interview processes prove that meritocracy doesn't work?
      • KirinDave 11y ago
        You cannot prove meritocracy doesn't work. Fortunately you don't have to. The burden of proof is required for positive claims. We don't have a lot of evidence meritocracy works. We have several pieces of evidence suggesting that it, in fact, didn't serve github very well. The fact there was a sexual harassment lawsuit with a barely kept secret about a whole group of women bound by arbitration and non-disparage agreements is probably evidece it doesn't. The sad part, most people will never really understand how much Tom sacrificed to protect his friends during his final days there.
• marcoperaza 11y ago
  I think we can both acknowledge race, which often goes hand-in-hand with different cultures, and treat people as individual human beings. You can make all sorts of statistical inferences based on race, but they're not really useful when you're dealing with individual people. There's so much individual variation, that a judgment based on race is silly. Let's treat people as individuals, not as faceless members of some caste.
  • lerpa 11y ago
    Best comment here.
  • Khaine 11y ago
    Finally some common sense. All people should be treated with respect.
  • proc0 11y ago
    This definitely, in addition to the fact that, at least in the U.S., we incorrectly correlate certain physical traits as markers for a certain sub-culture. This is why it's an inaccurate categorization, and by continuously bringing it up in professional settings in the name of "fixing the problem", we're simply persisting the mistake that allows racists to have a framework to continue causing problems.
• dragonshed 11y ago
  Not talking or thinking about race, or any other marginalization category, does absolutely nothing to help. "Privilege is invisible to those who have it". I humbly suggest you watch this TED presentation, https://www.ted.com/talks/michael_kimmel_why_gender_equality_is_good_for_everyone_men_included https://www.ted.com/talks/michael_kimmel_why_gender_equality... Granted it's primarily about gender equality, but it does an excellent job also addressing race, ethnicity, etc.
  • b6 11y ago
    > Not talking or thinking about race ... does absolutely nothing to help. But in the better future world we're trying to create where there is much less discrimination on the basis of ethnicity or sex or other body attributes, isn't that exactly what we'd be doing, not talking or thinking about race because it just isn't important to us? Isn't not talking or thinking about race exactly what we should be doing, as much as possible?
    • smt88 11y ago
      Everyone is biased[1], even toward groups they themselves belong to. It's impossible not to think about it. Biases are hard-wired into humans. To come anywhere near social equality, you have to recognize your own biases and actively ignore them. 1. http://www.boston.com/news/science/blogs/science-in-mind/2013/02/05/everyone-biased-harvard-professor-work-reveals-barely-know-our-own-minds/7x5K4gvrvaT5d3vpDaXC1K/blog.html http://www.boston.com/news/science/blogs/science-in-mind/201...
      • oldmantone 11y ago
        This! So much this! Just about any communal animal likes to be around others that look, communicate, and behave like themselves. It's a natural effect that promotes safety and efficiency. To acknowledge that we have this blind spot and ensure that we shine extra light into it is the only way to mitigate its effect. Cultural, like genetic, diversity is a good thing. We achieve by standing on the shoulders of giants. Giants come in all shapes and colors. If we continue to surround ourselves with like-minded individuals, we will never learn what we don't know. It is by gradually incorporating foreign ideas and concepts that initially challenge our own that we grow as a society. Two hundred fifty years ago, we thought it was acceptable to own another human. Two thousand five hundred years ago, we thought the earth was flat. Twenty years ago, we thought the Spice Girls were the pinnacle of musical achievement. It is particularly difficult to accept these new people and ideas because it forces us to reconsider our beliefs and admit we were wrong. But when we know better, we do better. Be self critical and form new opinions when exposed to the new and different.
• zzzeek 11y ago
  > We need to start learning how to simply NOT THINK about race, and NOT MENTION IT. There is simply no excuse at all to mention it. So when Neil deGrasse Tyson talks about his experience constantly being treated as a shoplifter solely based on his race [1], there's "simply no excuse at all"? I'd counter there's simply no excuse at all to attempt silencing necessary discussion about ongoing mass injustice. [1] http://parade.com/250591/lynnsherr/cosmos-neil-degrasse-tyson-transforming-how-we-think-about-science/ http://parade.com/250591/lynnsherr/cosmos-neil-degrasse-tyso...
  • arama471 11y ago
    You misinterpret proc0's comment: they are saying there is no excuse to treat Neil deGrasse Tyson as a shoplifter because of his race, that there is no excuse to ever decide that all people of a certain race or any category are all something or share something (in their comment "assholes" in yours "shoplifting"). Basically racism (using this definition: [1]) is never OK, regardless to which race and with which attributes. [1] https://www.google.ca/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=define+racism&gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=K4G2VrzwDse2jwO-j7PoAw https://www.google.ca/search?btnG=1&pws=0&q=define+racism&gw...
    • vinceguidry 11y ago
      > they are saying there is no excuse to treat Neil deGrasse Tyson as a shoplifter because of his race If that's really what he's saying, then that's even dumber. You can change how you think. You can help to change the thinking of the people you come in contact with. You can't change anyone you've never met, particularly the people who treated Tyson as a shoplifter. I'd love it if racism were to just disappear too. But wanting it to happen doesn't make it happen.
      • 13thLetter 11y ago
        > I'd love it if racism were to just disappear too. But wanting it to happen doesn't make it happen. The point being made here is that making the system even more racist is going to make the problem even worse. It's bad to assume Neal DeGrasse Tyson is a shoplifter because of the color of his skin. It's also bad (it may or may not be worse, but it is in no way good) to assume a person will discriminate against others because of the color of his skin.
• mc32 11y ago
  France takes this stance on matters of race. So much so any numbers regarding race in France are simply estimates because there are no official numbers. In practice so far, it hasn't fared any better, but probably not worse either. Like in the U.S., one of the biggest hindrances or obstacles to success is segregation (forced or by choice). Wanting success essentially entails assuming the culture and practices of the successful, but for some fraction of people, being malleable and becoming like the mainstream is antithetical as it's interpreted as "giving in" to the larger culture, while simultaneously wanting to be part of the larger culture and to be accepted by the larger culture. So there is that ambivalence. Personally, if I wanted to succeed in China or Mexico, I'm willing to bet I'd improve my chances by adopting local customs, manners and attitudes, rather than being steadfast about my own. [it's somewhat peculiar some Americans are sheepish about being "too American" while abroad but simultaneously believe that integration into the mainstream isn't all that necessary. It tells me that their brain tells them one thing, but in practice, when given the opportunity, try to be like Romans while in Rome] Personally, I think people put too much stock in group identity over say, personal identity. But you know, let people do as they wish.
  • argonaut 11y ago
    Do you look non-Asian? If you do, you will never be fully accepted in Chinese society, as I've heard from a few white people that have lived in China. Even if you marry and settle down there and raise kids.
    • mc32 11y ago
      I'm not saying be undistinguishable from native Chinese, I'm saying adapt to the culture and you'll do better. Don't think, "I'm going native" think of it as transitioning into the mainstream of Chinese society. Celebrate New Years with your coworkers, eat the local fare, defer to ancestor worship, observe deference to elders, etc... the things that allow locals to function within their society. You don't go ahead and show them how "guanxi" is bad, etc. you function within the local framework.
      • 11y ago
• mikerichards 11y ago
  American culture is such a bummer when it comes to how it shoves people into categories. We need to start learning how to simply NOT THINK about race, and NOT MENTION IT. There is simply no excuse at all to mention it. People CANNOT be categorized based on skin color at all, AT ALL. People cannot be categorized based on culture either. Virtually everyone is multi-ethnic and multi-racial at some level. To identify even yourself as belonging to a distinct "color" is just a fabrication of American culture that is an unfortunate outcome of the history in this country. Nope, the left won't let that happen. Leftists have to categorize to divide, conquer, and marginalize their enemies...all under the guise of compassion and the other bullshit they make up to further their agenda.
  • proc0 11y ago
    Yes, I'm mostly a liberal, but I agree that it fails completely to see certain truths if the truth even remotely violate political correctness.
  • dang 11y ago
    Please don't post generically ideological comments like this. The thread is bad enough even without going there.
    • mikerichards 11y ago
      Dang, as someone that is supposed to be objective, I'd be careful showing your true political colors. I'm sure there are people that watch your commentary.
      • dang 11y ago
        I didn't post that because I agree or disagree with you politically, but because ideological name-calling (a) isn't substantive discussion, and (b) invariably provokes worse.
• Lazare 11y ago
  > People CANNOT be categorized based on skin color at all, AT ALL. People are categorized in that manner every day. Perhaps you're trying to say that's regrettable and inaccurate? > To identify even yourself as belonging to a distinct "color" is just a fabrication of American culture Certainly, but it's a culture which still exists. It doesn't go away just because you announce that it's illogical and unfortunate. I think you may be falling prey to the is-ought problem[1]. (To be clear, I'm not expressing a view on Github's actions, but I think it's somewhat naive to suggest that there aren't real problems out there.) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem
  • proc0 11y ago
    Yes, I'm saying it's a wrong categorization, and inaccurate. People inaccurately categorize themselves as well. It would be more accurate to not refer to those categories as race, but as sub-cultures, because then it becomes something that isn't inherent to someone's identity. People of mixed race, for example, half "black", half "white", will often choose to be "black", and identify as such, when in fact, their race is a mix, yet they see themselves as "black". This is clear proof it's all fabricated, but most people can't see this.
    • argonaut 11y ago
      The problem is that people do it. Telling people to stop talking about it is not going to solve the problem while the reality remains that many, many people out there judge others based on race and other "inaccurate categorizations."
      • proc0 11y ago
        That's true, in practice it's different and it could be hard. But still, companies that take into consideration this incorrect categorization are exacerbating the problem, because I'm sure there are alternatives to helping unfortunate people without considering their race.
    • Lazare 11y ago
• addicted 11y ago
  The race aspect is basically a footnote in the article regarding the exodus (the complaints largely center around a change in leadership and the company's hierarchical structure). Yet a comment about the race aspects is the top comment here. Your complaints have already been addressed many many times in academic literature and popular media. But I have to say, there is something amazing about reading someone comment that we should not be talking about race. I guess the current alternative, where we don't talk about it, but people both consciously and subconsciously continue discriminating by race seems far more palatable to you.
  • proc0 11y ago
    It was a bullet point in the company's slide presentation that "white women" were the problem. That's not just a minor detail, and I would be outraged if it were my company, even though I'm not white or female.
• raquo 11y ago
  No thanks. I'll talk about race the same way I talk about eye color. I'll talk about culture the same way I talk about TV preferences. Without hysteria. Fuck racists. Fuck spineless "don't you dare mention race" bullshit. Both are equally cowardly.
  • proc0 11y ago
    The moment you mention race, you are fighting the racist's battle. Instead if you avoid it, you are side-stepping and leaving the racists on their own ground, where they are just insane and/or ignorant people. History gave us inaccurate representations of people, and racists use these to spew their hatred. Why promote the tool and framework for racists to continue using?
    • raquo 11y ago
      Your argument, the way I see it: "People say lies about race[0]. So let's not talk about race anymore". This is, appallingly, the current state of the art of racial discussions in the west. Try to apply that logic to any other subject however, and the insanity will reveal itself. "People say lies about used cars. So let's not talk about used cars anymore" "People say lies about the mistakes of The One Party. So let's not talk about the mistakes of The One Party anymore" There is no excuse for suppressing legitimate, non-racist speech on racial issues. Also, that kind of speech exists, and if you haven't heard it, that's because decent people around you are scared shitless of being labelled a racist for bringing up race, however innocuously. And actual racists don't care. Which exactly the scenario that your argument is designed to enable. [0] every racist statement is by definition a lie. That's very important.
      • proc0 11y ago
        That's not the argument, granted it's very subtle and hard to see. The argument is "race as used in the U.S. is a social construct that is incorrectly correlated with some physical traits. So lets avoid bringing up someone's race when trying to explain their behavior and/or intentions." Just because someone has dark skin doesn't automatically mean they are "black" because black is more of a cultural thing than a race. It's incorrectly attributed as a race in the U.S., and in many cases it does coincide, so someone that looks black is probably black, but not everyone. This is more so the case with white people. The white label is a huge generalization on many sub-cultures and races, not just one. So it is inefficient to try and explain behavior with these labels that are incorrectly seen as race. To further expand, yes there is a problem with racist people, but what's the point of saying they are "white" racist people? They're just racist. No need to be further promote the same mis-categorization that racist people love to use. Racist people are ignorant and/or crazy, and we can continue analyzing them and fighting without mentioning anyone's race.
• jccalhoun 11y ago
  I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking about race or identifying as one thing or another. I think the problem is when we start thinking what we identify as is better than what others identify as. Yes race is a social construct but so are lots and lots of things that we talk about all the time and don't see to have problems with.
• awakeasleep 11y ago
  I think you're seeing the tail wag the dog here. Racism or 'seeing in race' isn't just a natural group-think behavior. It provides poeple with concrete benefits both emotionally (meaning, it allows people to tell themselves a story where they're better than other people) and logistically through the racial equivalent of cronyism. So don't get caught up in the idea that racism is just a random behavior, or holdout from an earlier time, or something that people want to think themselves out of. Acting with love towards all people and believing it's in your best interest requires a level of abstract thought and faith that isn't a prerequisite for tribalism & racial discrimination.
• threatofrain 11y ago
  I think it's a weakness to omit thought and speech of outward appearance. Race for some is more than outward appearance. It's a line of community strategy. It's a shared language. It's shared food. Shared customs. Shared values. There's something beautiful and treacherous there. Race as a social reality exists whether we talk about or it not. Omitting speech destroys a valuable technique for counterbalancing instinct. Omitting thought disarms people from contemplating social reality.
  • malandrew 11y ago
    But why? You can have a shared language, shared food, shared customs and shared values despite race. Brazil is exemplary in this regard, where most of the country is mixed race and everyone is having sex with everyone else despite race. A former co-worker of mine, Wesley poignantly lamented this when he was in the US, when people ask questions like "What are you, Japanese, Chinese, Korean or something else?" and he was like "Huh? None of those. I'm Brazilian."
• xtracto 11y ago
  > American culture is such a bummer when it comes to how it shoves people into categories. We need to start learning how to simply NOT THINK about race, and NOT MENTION IT. This is something that had wondered about the USA race culture... the fact that you mention "there are x Latin-like population" or "Y black population" or "Z white population", the mere separation means that people are thinking in terms of races...