4 ms·

We have the same problem here in the UK. For clarity i've had to give my job over 3 times in my career to Indian outsourced employees, including for Cisco (my l

We have the same problem here in the UK. For clarity i've had to give my job over 3 times in my career to Indian outsourced employees, including for Cisco (my last employer before the current one) The rules are not being applied, but for me it's quite simple. If you want to bring a foreign worker in, you need to advertise it on a government website for a month. These details will include salary, role, skills, the sponsoring company as well as the one they will be ultimately working for. I spent the last 5 months unemployed, but i'm normally a devops/sysadmin. I know my job went to India. I don't mind if they're better, but most of the time they're not. I didn't claim unemployment benefits as I didn't want the shame and the hassle, including having to spend 20 hours a week looking for work on the governments website. If this website included the details of the jobs that allegedly couldn't be filled by a UK guy i'd be far better equipped to get a job I am good at where a company is trying to cheap it out. Note - I am not trying to get at Indian employees here - the RF guys at my last place were superb and better than anybody in the UK as we don't train enough of them here - but I am very annoyed where a company can twist the system to avoid paying UK wages for a UK job.

crdoconnor 11y ago
A lot of the time it's not even cheaper, it's costlier. Management just prefers to have a docile, more easily controlled workforce. Management is also surreptitiously raising its own pay (by increasing coordination costs).
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  > A lot of the time it's not even cheaper, it's costlier. Management just prefers to have a docile, more easily controlled workforce. Reminds me of something David Graeber said: Given a choice between a course of action that would make capitalism seem the only possible economic system, and one that would transform capitalism into a viable, long-term economic system, neoliberalism chooses the former every time.
dominotw 11y ago
> I don't mind if they're better, but most of the time they're not. Your employer should make that decision and they seem to think otherwise. Not everyone wants to shop at whole foods.
- pasbesoin 11y ago
  Nonetheless, it is sometimes blatantly obvious to the person who is assigned the task of training the person or persons in the duties they perform, immediately before they find themselves without a job. And when you repeatedly get feedback from several/many people in your organization, asking why this or that isn't done yet or continues to be wrong. If Management really believes that "this is the right decision for us", with full -- or at least competent -- knowledge of what is going on and how it is working out, then they also are deliberately planning to irritate and inconvenience at lot of their other employees and extant work flows. I've seen it. Repeatedly. And, like the grand parent, I've worked with some outsourced/overseas people who were good. In my experience, over a number of years, they tended to be the exception rather than the rule. This speaks to corporate outsourcing, from a U.S. perspective, rather than in general. Plenty of people elsewhere are very good at what they do. A lot of U.S. corporate outsourcing, in my experience, has drawn from a different and significantly less capable labor pool. Meanwhile, the people structuring and running these transitions tended to collect their short-term consulting fees and bonuses and move on.
an_cap 11y ago
We have the same problem here in apartheid South Africa. For clarity i've had to give my job over 3 times in my career to black South African employees, including for Cisco (my last employer before the current one) The rules are not being applied, but for me it's quite simple. If you want to bring a black worker in, you need to advertise it on a government website for a month. These details will include salary, role, skills, the sponsoring company as well as the one they will be ultimately working for. I spent the last 5 months unemployed, but i'm normally a devops/sysadmin. I know my job went to a black South African. I don't mind if they're better, but most of the time they're not. I didn't claim unemployment benefits as I didn't want the shame and the hassle, including having to spend 20 hours a week looking for work on the governments website. If this website included the details of the jobs that allegedly couldn't be filled by a white South African i'd be far better equipped to get a job I am good at where a company is trying to cheap it out. Note - I am not trying to get at black South Africans here - the RF guys at my last place were superb and better than anybody in white South Africa as we don't train enough of them here - but I am very annoyed where a company can twist the system to avoid paying white South African wages for a white South African job.
- lkenflkewnf 11y ago
  Oh fuck off. This has nothing to do with civil rights. It's a bunch of rich corporate board members trying to game the system and further enrich themselves through abuse of foreign indentured servants.
  - an_cap 11y ago
    I happen to be one of these 'foreign indentured servants'. Or rather someone who would gladly be a 'foreign indentured servant' if only the H-1B lottery picked me. I am also pretty sure that there are probably millions if not tens of millions of people just like me.
    - lkenflkewnf 11y ago
      You realize that by leaving, you would be negatively impacting the economic development of your native country, correct? Mass exoduses of capital and the most capable members of a nation's society have historically had disastrous effects. It would be harming orders of magnitude more people than those who benefited slightly by leaving.

crdoconnor 11y ago

A lot of the time it's not even cheaper, it's costlier. Management just prefers to have a docile, more easily controlled workforce. Management is also surreptitiously raising its own pay (by increasing coordination costs).

eli_gottlieb 11y ago
> A lot of the time it's not even cheaper, it's costlier. Management just prefers to have a docile, more easily controlled workforce. Reminds me of something David Graeber said: Given a choice between a course of action that would make capitalism seem the only possible economic system, and one that would transform capitalism into a viable, long-term economic system, neoliberalism chooses the former every time.

dominotw 11y ago

> I don't mind if they're better, but most of the time they're not. Your employer should make that decision and they seem to think otherwise. Not everyone wants to shop at whole foods.

pasbesoin 11y ago
Nonetheless, it is sometimes blatantly obvious to the person who is assigned the task of training the person or persons in the duties they perform, immediately before they find themselves without a job. And when you repeatedly get feedback from several/many people in your organization, asking why this or that isn't done yet or continues to be wrong. If Management really believes that "this is the right decision for us", with full -- or at least competent -- knowledge of what is going on and how it is working out, then they also are deliberately planning to irritate and inconvenience at lot of their other employees and extant work flows. I've seen it. Repeatedly. And, like the grand parent, I've worked with some outsourced/overseas people who were good. In my experience, over a number of years, they tended to be the exception rather than the rule. This speaks to corporate outsourcing, from a U.S. perspective, rather than in general. Plenty of people elsewhere are very good at what they do. A lot of U.S. corporate outsourcing, in my experience, has drawn from a different and significantly less capable labor pool. Meanwhile, the people structuring and running these transitions tended to collect their short-term consulting fees and bonuses and move on.

an_cap 11y ago

We have the same problem here in apartheid South Africa. For clarity i've had to give my job over 3 times in my career to black South African employees, including for Cisco (my last employer before the current one) The rules are not being applied, but for me it's quite simple. If you want to bring a black worker in, you need to advertise it on a government website for a month. These details will include salary, role, skills, the sponsoring company as well as the one they will be ultimately working for. I spent the last 5 months unemployed, but i'm normally a devops/sysadmin. I know my job went to a black South African. I don't mind if they're better, but most of the time they're not. I didn't claim unemployment benefits as I didn't want the shame and the hassle, including having to spend 20 hours a week looking for work on the governments website. If this website included the details of the jobs that allegedly couldn't be filled by a white South African i'd be far better equipped to get a job I am good at where a company is trying to cheap it out. Note - I am not trying to get at black South Africans here - the RF guys at my last place were superb and better than anybody in white South Africa as we don't train enough of them here - but I am very annoyed where a company can twist the system to avoid paying white South African wages for a white South African job.

lkenflkewnf 11y ago
Oh fuck off. This has nothing to do with civil rights. It's a bunch of rich corporate board members trying to game the system and further enrich themselves through abuse of foreign indentured servants.
- an_cap 11y ago
  I happen to be one of these 'foreign indentured servants'. Or rather someone who would gladly be a 'foreign indentured servant' if only the H-1B lottery picked me. I am also pretty sure that there are probably millions if not tens of millions of people just like me.
  - lkenflkewnf 11y ago
    You realize that by leaving, you would be negatively impacting the economic development of your native country, correct? Mass exoduses of capital and the most capable members of a nation's society have historically had disastrous effects. It would be harming orders of magnitude more people than those who benefited slightly by leaving.