3 ms·

So, even in a prefect world, it all comes down to whether it's cheaper/better to overgenerate and store or to run peaker plants? It seems storage has a long wa

by nordify 11y ago

So, even in a prefect world, it all comes down to whether it's cheaper/better to overgenerate and store or to run peaker plants? It seems storage has a long way to go as long as gas peaker plants are around 7c/kWh.

dragontamer 11y ago
Energy storage is beating peaker plants today... under specific situations. Note that gas peaker plants only run 10% of the time on the average (basically, they only work in the summer when our grid needs the most power, and then they don't make any money for the rest of the year). From an economics / business point of view, having your power plants sit around only working 10% of the time is completely uneconomical. You need to be compensated severely to make it worth your while. Or to put it another way: my energy storage company that gets 1c off energy arbitrage for all 12-months 100% of the year will make more money than your peaker plant that only gets 7c for 10% of the year. And good luck convincing California to build a peaker plant. It is more politically sound to push for green-energy batteries. You'll get more approval in more locations in the US than gas (even if Natural gas is all-American and burns cleanly, its still a fossil fuel which is increasingly becoming a poison word in politics)
- nordify 11y ago
  Your storage system must be able to store enough energy to cover the cumulative output of the peaker plant in order for it to be able to replace the peaker plant. That's a lot of storage. And you need to have enough overgeneration to be able to reliable fill it up daily. This sounds very expensive. Could it really work from an economic perspective?
  - dragontamer 11y ago
    It already does work. https://www.dom.com/corporate/what-we-do/electricity/generation/hydro-power-stations/bath-county-pumped-storage-station https://www.dom.com/corporate/what-we-do/electricity/generat... This worked in 1970. Why wouldn't it work today? Energy storage solutions are deployed around the nation, and world, for this very reason. The main advantage is that energy storage today is more efficient, with new technologies coming out.
    - nordify 11y ago
      > The main advantage is that energy storage today is more efficient, with new technologies coming out. But not cheaper or anywhere close to the scale of pumped hydro? Hydro requires favorable geography and/or rebuilding the grid to cope with the extremely large flows required to keep up with storage. So, energy storage works, but is not economically feasible other than as research projects outside of hydro? Looks like peaker plants are here to stay for a very long time.

by nordify 11y ago

dragontamer 11y ago

Energy storage is beating peaker plants today... under specific situations. Note that gas peaker plants only run 10% of the time on the average (basically, they only work in the summer when our grid needs the most power, and then they don't make any money for the rest of the year). From an economics / business point of view, having your power plants sit around only working 10% of the time is completely uneconomical. You need to be compensated severely to make it worth your while. Or to put it another way: my energy storage company that gets 1c off energy arbitrage for all 12-months 100% of the year will make more money than your peaker plant that only gets 7c for 10% of the year. And good luck convincing California to build a peaker plant. It is more politically sound to push for green-energy batteries. You'll get more approval in more locations in the US than gas (even if Natural gas is all-American and burns cleanly, its still a fossil fuel which is increasingly becoming a poison word in politics)

nordify 11y ago
Your storage system must be able to store enough energy to cover the cumulative output of the peaker plant in order for it to be able to replace the peaker plant. That's a lot of storage. And you need to have enough overgeneration to be able to reliable fill it up daily. This sounds very expensive. Could it really work from an economic perspective?
- dragontamer 11y ago
  It already does work. https://www.dom.com/corporate/what-we-do/electricity/generation/hydro-power-stations/bath-county-pumped-storage-station https://www.dom.com/corporate/what-we-do/electricity/generat... This worked in 1970. Why wouldn't it work today? Energy storage solutions are deployed around the nation, and world, for this very reason. The main advantage is that energy storage today is more efficient, with new technologies coming out.
  - nordify 11y ago
    > The main advantage is that energy storage today is more efficient, with new technologies coming out. But not cheaper or anywhere close to the scale of pumped hydro? Hydro requires favorable geography and/or rebuilding the grid to cope with the extremely large flows required to keep up with storage. So, energy storage works, but is not economically feasible other than as research projects outside of hydro? Looks like peaker plants are here to stay for a very long time.