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To add to your comment, he took an enormous amount of data. It was sweeping and pretty indiscriminate. And he gave it to the media. Some of what he took and sh

To add to your comment, he took an enormous amount of data. It was sweeping and pretty indiscriminate. And he gave it to the media. Some of what he took and shared could be legitimately argued as whistle blowing but there's lots of other classified data about legitimate programs that was taken as well.

FreakyT 11y ago
I think this is the key issue that really muddies the Snowden issue. I completely agree with Snowden's leaking of the domestic spying program information, but he also leaked a lot of information not related to that. Foreign spying is basically what the NSA is supposed to do.
- mcv 11y ago
  Did he also leak information about spying on enemies? Or only about spying on allies?
  - FreakyT 11y ago
    Both, and that's the key issue. Here's an example: http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266875/exclusive-us-hacked-pacnet-asia-pacific-fibre-optic-network-operator http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266875/exclusive...
jellicle 11y ago
Can you give an example?
- slantedview 11y ago
  He cannot, because any sensitive data that is not in the public's interest, to be made public, has not been.
  - ikeboy 11y ago
    >The American government conducted a major intelligence offensive against China, with targets including the Chinese government and networking company Huawei, according to documents from former NSA worker Edward Snowden that have been viewed by SPIEGEL and the New York Times http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-spied-on-chinese-government-and-networking-firm-huawei-a-960199.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-spied-on-chine... >Research by SPIEGEL reporters in Berlin and Washington, talks with intelligence officials and the evaluation of internal documents of the US' National Security Agency and other information, most of which comes from the archive of former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, lead to the conclusion that the US diplomatic mission in the German capital has not merely been promoting German-American friendship. On the contrary, it is a nest of espionage. From the roof of the embassy, a special unit of the CIA and NSA can apparently monitor a large part of cellphone communication in the government quarter. And there is evidence that agents based at Pariser Platz recently targeted the cellphone that Merkel uses the most. http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-nsa-spied-on-merkel-cell-phone-from-berlin-embassy-a-930205.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-... Well, I suppose it's in China's and Germany's interests, but doing things like that that benefit another country at the expense of your own is generally called treason.
    - lostlogin 11y ago
      It's sort of amazing that treason is a still a charge that can be levelled. Seeing the word outside the context of a 18th century history (or earlier) still catches me, and with Snowden it's hardly recent news.
    - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
      It may generally be called treason by some people, but in the US the definition of the crime of treason is specifically constrained to avoid abuses. >Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
- BWStearns 11y ago
  Listening in on Merkel's phone calls. Yes, an ally of the US but allies spy on each other all the time and have and will for all time. Was it illegal? That's a hard no. Was it immoral? That's an interesting debate. Edit: Though I did appreciate her Captain Renault impression about being so terribly shocked that as head of state she was a target for espionage.
  - robotresearcher 11y ago
    > Was it illegal? That's a hard no. It was illegal under German law. Should we ignore the laws of our close allies?
    - BookmarkSaver 11y ago
      Whether or not we should, it later came out that they were doing the same to us.
      - BWStearns 11y ago
        If I were a German taxpayer and the BND weren't spying on the US I would want a refund.
    - Philadelphia 11y ago
      Being a foreign spy is always illegal. That's the point of it, and why spies are separate from soldiers and police.
- tptacek 11y ago
  He doesn't have to. Both Snowden and Glenn Greenwald have acknowledged both that there are documents in the Snowden tranche that are not in the public interest to disclose, and that all the documents had not been reviewed before being turned over to reporters.
  - jellicle 11y ago
    So you're saying you have no examples, and that the only people privy to any supposed non-public-interest disclosure were the journalists at a few major newspapers.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      No, that is not what I said.
tux1968 11y ago
Isn't the more important point whether or not he exposed serious corruption and illegal activity? We forgive the police breaking the law, in order to enforce it, all the time.. the classic example of speeding to catch a speeder. It seems disingenuous to focus on the collateral damage of his action and ignore the main target. We forgive our military their collateral damage all the time as an unfortunate side effect of pursuing a noble mission. Shouldn't he be afforded the same?
- danso 11y ago
  > Isn't the more important point whether or not he exposed serious corruption and illegal activity? We forgive the police breaking the law, in order to enforce it, all the time.. the classic example of speeding to catch a speeder. But...that's not breaking the law. When speeding is done as part of the police officer's job, it is not breaking the law. In contrast, when a police officer speeds while not carrying out their duty, that is indeed breaking the law. The Pulitzer Prize for Public Service in 2013 was awarded to an investigation that uncovered illegally speeding cops: http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/7180 http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/7180
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    >But...that's not breaking the law. When speeding is done as part of the police officer's job, it is not breaking the law. What about the FBI running a honey pot where they continue to allow children to be abused? Technically legal, but is it really something we should tolerate?
  - sangnoir 11y ago
    > that's not breaking the law. When speeding is done as part of the police officer's job, it is not breaking the law. By definition, whistleblowing is disclosing information that shouldn't be disclosed.This is why there needs to be whistleblower protection: so that the "illegal" action is no longer considered illegal but a civic duty. > The Pulitzer Prize for Public Service in 2013 was awarded to an investigation that... Funny you should mention that, in 2014, the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service was awarded to journalists who worked with material illegally provided by Edward Snowden: http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/7200 http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/7200
kafkaesq 11y ago
And he gave it to the media. That makes it sound like he dumped it indiscriminately. Which is very misleading.

FreakyT 11y ago

I think this is the key issue that really muddies the Snowden issue. I completely agree with Snowden's leaking of the domestic spying program information, but he also leaked a lot of information not related to that. Foreign spying is basically what the NSA is supposed to do.

mcv 11y ago
Did he also leak information about spying on enemies? Or only about spying on allies?
- FreakyT 11y ago
  Both, and that's the key issue. Here's an example: http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266875/exclusive-us-hacked-pacnet-asia-pacific-fibre-optic-network-operator http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1266875/exclusive...

jellicle 11y ago

Can you give an example?

slantedview 11y ago
He cannot, because any sensitive data that is not in the public's interest, to be made public, has not been.
- ikeboy 11y ago
  >The American government conducted a major intelligence offensive against China, with targets including the Chinese government and networking company Huawei, according to documents from former NSA worker Edward Snowden that have been viewed by SPIEGEL and the New York Times http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-spied-on-chinese-government-and-networking-firm-huawei-a-960199.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-spied-on-chine... >Research by SPIEGEL reporters in Berlin and Washington, talks with intelligence officials and the evaluation of internal documents of the US' National Security Agency and other information, most of which comes from the archive of former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, lead to the conclusion that the US diplomatic mission in the German capital has not merely been promoting German-American friendship. On the contrary, it is a nest of espionage. From the roof of the embassy, a special unit of the CIA and NSA can apparently monitor a large part of cellphone communication in the government quarter. And there is evidence that agents based at Pariser Platz recently targeted the cellphone that Merkel uses the most. http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-nsa-spied-on-merkel-cell-phone-from-berlin-embassy-a-930205.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-... Well, I suppose it's in China's and Germany's interests, but doing things like that that benefit another country at the expense of your own is generally called treason.
  - lostlogin 11y ago
    It's sort of amazing that treason is a still a charge that can be levelled. Seeing the word outside the context of a 18th century history (or earlier) still catches me, and with Snowden it's hardly recent news.
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    It may generally be called treason by some people, but in the US the definition of the crime of treason is specifically constrained to avoid abuses. >Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
BWStearns 11y ago
Listening in on Merkel's phone calls. Yes, an ally of the US but allies spy on each other all the time and have and will for all time. Was it illegal? That's a hard no. Was it immoral? That's an interesting debate. Edit: Though I did appreciate her Captain Renault impression about being so terribly shocked that as head of state she was a target for espionage.
- robotresearcher 11y ago
  > Was it illegal? That's a hard no. It was illegal under German law. Should we ignore the laws of our close allies?
  - BookmarkSaver 11y ago
    Whether or not we should, it later came out that they were doing the same to us.
    - BWStearns 11y ago
      If I were a German taxpayer and the BND weren't spying on the US I would want a refund.
  - Philadelphia 11y ago
    Being a foreign spy is always illegal. That's the point of it, and why spies are separate from soldiers and police.
tptacek 11y ago
He doesn't have to. Both Snowden and Glenn Greenwald have acknowledged both that there are documents in the Snowden tranche that are not in the public interest to disclose, and that all the documents had not been reviewed before being turned over to reporters.
- jellicle 11y ago
  So you're saying you have no examples, and that the only people privy to any supposed non-public-interest disclosure were the journalists at a few major newspapers.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    No, that is not what I said.

tux1968 11y ago

Isn't the more important point whether or not he exposed serious corruption and illegal activity? We forgive the police breaking the law, in order to enforce it, all the time.. the classic example of speeding to catch a speeder. It seems disingenuous to focus on the collateral damage of his action and ignore the main target. We forgive our military their collateral damage all the time as an unfortunate side effect of pursuing a noble mission. Shouldn't he be afforded the same?

danso 11y ago
> Isn't the more important point whether or not he exposed serious corruption and illegal activity? We forgive the police breaking the law, in order to enforce it, all the time.. the classic example of speeding to catch a speeder. But...that's not breaking the law. When speeding is done as part of the police officer's job, it is not breaking the law. In contrast, when a police officer speeds while not carrying out their duty, that is indeed breaking the law. The Pulitzer Prize for Public Service in 2013 was awarded to an investigation that uncovered illegally speeding cops: http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/7180 http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/7180
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  >But...that's not breaking the law. When speeding is done as part of the police officer's job, it is not breaking the law. What about the FBI running a honey pot where they continue to allow children to be abused? Technically legal, but is it really something we should tolerate?
- sangnoir 11y ago
  > that's not breaking the law. When speeding is done as part of the police officer's job, it is not breaking the law. By definition, whistleblowing is disclosing information that shouldn't be disclosed.This is why there needs to be whistleblower protection: so that the "illegal" action is no longer considered illegal but a civic duty. > The Pulitzer Prize for Public Service in 2013 was awarded to an investigation that... Funny you should mention that, in 2014, the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service was awarded to journalists who worked with material illegally provided by Edward Snowden: http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/7200 http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/7200

kafkaesq 11y ago

And he gave it to the media. That makes it sound like he dumped it indiscriminately. Which is very misleading.