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>A surprisingly large number of Americans approve of the Patriot Act. Because the vast majority of those people don't understand the repercussions of it. They

>A surprisingly large number of Americans approve of the Patriot Act. Because the vast majority of those people don't understand the repercussions of it. They think it allows the government to "catch the terrorists" on our soil. That's the way it was pitched. The people in power are still immigrants to the internet and this sort of technology in general. The views regarding domestic spying will change as more technologically savvy people age and move into politics. That's why they're trying so hard to push certain legislation, before it's too late.

untog 11y ago
They think it allows the government to "catch the terrorists" on our soil. That's the way it was pitched. And it does. Some people are worried enough to think that is worth the price.
- forgetsusername 11y ago
  >And it does. Maybe. Do you have any evidence? How many terrorists have been captured on American soil since 2002? How many were caught thanks to the Patriot Act?
  - tremon 11y ago
    One of the Boston bombers was captured. /s
- discardorama 11y ago
  > And it does. Some people are worried enough to think that is worth the price. That's a broad claim. From everything I've read, there has not been much real success. Can you point me to some news reports where the spying actually helped catch real terrorists? The only case I know of is a Somali expat sending money home, which ended up in Al Shabab's hands.
- fukusa 11y ago
  Most of the terrorist attacks taking place in the USA are staged by the FBI: https://theintercept.com/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrorist/ https://theintercept.com/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrori...
  - untog 11y ago
    The article you've cited discusses the FBI and a single terrorist. I'd like to see the citation for most attacks being staged by the FBI.
    - fukusa 11y ago
      Here's another one: https://theintercept.com/2015/07/13/another-terror-arrest-another-mentally-ill-man-armed-fbi/ https://theintercept.com/2015/07/13/another-terror-arrest-an... And another one: https://theintercept.com/2015/04/29/tamerlan-tsarnaevs-path-extremism/ https://theintercept.com/2015/04/29/tamerlan-tsarnaevs-path-... More: https://theintercept.com/2015/02/26/fbi-manufacture-plots-terrorism-isis-grave-threats/ https://theintercept.com/2015/02/26/fbi-manufacture-plots-te... And more: https://theintercept.com/2015/02/25/isis-material-support-plot-involved-confidential-informant/ https://theintercept.com/2015/02/25/isis-material-support-pl... Then there's this: https://theintercept.com/2015/01/16/latest-fbi-boast-disrupting-terror-u-s-plot-deserves-scrutiny-skepticism/ https://theintercept.com/2015/01/16/latest-fbi-boast-disrupt... And this: https://theintercept.com/2015/06/25/fort-dix-five-terror-plot-the-real-story/ https://theintercept.com/2015/06/25/fort-dix-five-terror-plo...
    - tedks 11y ago
      After COINTELPRO law enforcement as a whole in both the US and other countries moved to a subversion model as opposed to an adversarial model. This is why the FBI or local police have infiltrators or paid informants in virtually every activist group in the US, regardless of whether or not those groups are actually affiliated with terrorism -- if they ever start leaning that way, LEA will step in and disrupt it from the inside. The way this works out in practice is that every agent sees an opportunity to advance their career by manufacturing threats. So they have their infiltrator agent or their informants stir the pot, see who's "really down for the cause," get as deeply embedded with the group as they can (going so far as to have children with members in some occasions), and gradually shift the group towards extremism, or if the group won't go along with it, whoever they can splinter off and radicalize. Once this person has incriminated themselves enough, they get arrested and charged with terrorism. I'm not going to cite any sources because you could easily find reasons to dismiss them. Certainly, I don't know of any listing of all arrests for terrorists accompanied by all the case details, so I'll certainly never be able to provide quantitative evidence of this very real trend. Also, I think that looking all of this up and finding it out piece by piece will be valuable for you -- it's very easy to dismiss a fully formed theory such as this comment, but it's more difficult to dismiss all the little pieces of evidence you build up over time. Maybe keep a document with all the incidences you find, to prevent yourself from dismissing every single one of them as "only about one case -- not a trend" and by induction, determining there is no issue.
- lukifer 11y ago
  Let's assume that's true for the sake of argument. Then why stop there? Why not monitor all communications to also catch murderers and rapists and tax cheats? Why have a 4th amendment at all? What makes "terrorism" substantially different than any other crime?
  - untog 11y ago
    Sure, why not? There are people out there that would happily have their communications monitored in order to catch murderers. Tax cheats, maybe not - no-one lives in fear of a tax cheat. I'm not saying this is a wise or sensible opinion, but people still hold it - not everyone is just "ill informed".
    - k33n 11y ago
      Not all opinions are created equal.
    - MawNicker 11y ago
      I disagree. They're ignorant. How could they not be? 3000 people died in the twin towers. Thats nothing. The spying is far scarier. They own us. Totally. No one can escape it. Anyone who intends subversive action can be targetted. They can be approached and manipulated by an agent who knows everything about them. The would-be-subversive can be nudged, sabotaged or flat out blackmailed. There won't be any more rights movements in this environment. At least not "real" ones. They will manufacture contrived movements to subdue us. Anyone who thinks this is right hasn't thought it through; They are wrong. If you're one of the people holding this opinion, you are wrong. At the very least you're wrong about them being properly informed.
      - tremon 11y ago
        Anyone who intends subversive action can be targetted But if you identify with your current government (for whatever rationale), should you not fear subversive action?
      - untog 11y ago

untog 11y ago

They think it allows the government to "catch the terrorists" on our soil. That's the way it was pitched. And it does. Some people are worried enough to think that is worth the price.

forgetsusername 11y ago
>And it does. Maybe. Do you have any evidence? How many terrorists have been captured on American soil since 2002? How many were caught thanks to the Patriot Act?
- tremon 11y ago
  One of the Boston bombers was captured. /s
discardorama 11y ago
> And it does. Some people are worried enough to think that is worth the price. That's a broad claim. From everything I've read, there has not been much real success. Can you point me to some news reports where the spying actually helped catch real terrorists? The only case I know of is a Somali expat sending money home, which ended up in Al Shabab's hands.
fukusa 11y ago
Most of the terrorist attacks taking place in the USA are staged by the FBI: https://theintercept.com/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrorist/ https://theintercept.com/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrori...
- untog 11y ago
  The article you've cited discusses the FBI and a single terrorist. I'd like to see the citation for most attacks being staged by the FBI.
  - fukusa 11y ago
    Here's another one: https://theintercept.com/2015/07/13/another-terror-arrest-another-mentally-ill-man-armed-fbi/ https://theintercept.com/2015/07/13/another-terror-arrest-an... And another one: https://theintercept.com/2015/04/29/tamerlan-tsarnaevs-path-extremism/ https://theintercept.com/2015/04/29/tamerlan-tsarnaevs-path-... More: https://theintercept.com/2015/02/26/fbi-manufacture-plots-terrorism-isis-grave-threats/ https://theintercept.com/2015/02/26/fbi-manufacture-plots-te... And more: https://theintercept.com/2015/02/25/isis-material-support-plot-involved-confidential-informant/ https://theintercept.com/2015/02/25/isis-material-support-pl... Then there's this: https://theintercept.com/2015/01/16/latest-fbi-boast-disrupting-terror-u-s-plot-deserves-scrutiny-skepticism/ https://theintercept.com/2015/01/16/latest-fbi-boast-disrupt... And this: https://theintercept.com/2015/06/25/fort-dix-five-terror-plot-the-real-story/ https://theintercept.com/2015/06/25/fort-dix-five-terror-plo...
  - tedks 11y ago
    After COINTELPRO law enforcement as a whole in both the US and other countries moved to a subversion model as opposed to an adversarial model. This is why the FBI or local police have infiltrators or paid informants in virtually every activist group in the US, regardless of whether or not those groups are actually affiliated with terrorism -- if they ever start leaning that way, LEA will step in and disrupt it from the inside. The way this works out in practice is that every agent sees an opportunity to advance their career by manufacturing threats. So they have their infiltrator agent or their informants stir the pot, see who's "really down for the cause," get as deeply embedded with the group as they can (going so far as to have children with members in some occasions), and gradually shift the group towards extremism, or if the group won't go along with it, whoever they can splinter off and radicalize. Once this person has incriminated themselves enough, they get arrested and charged with terrorism. I'm not going to cite any sources because you could easily find reasons to dismiss them. Certainly, I don't know of any listing of all arrests for terrorists accompanied by all the case details, so I'll certainly never be able to provide quantitative evidence of this very real trend. Also, I think that looking all of this up and finding it out piece by piece will be valuable for you -- it's very easy to dismiss a fully formed theory such as this comment, but it's more difficult to dismiss all the little pieces of evidence you build up over time. Maybe keep a document with all the incidences you find, to prevent yourself from dismissing every single one of them as "only about one case -- not a trend" and by induction, determining there is no issue.
lukifer 11y ago
Let's assume that's true for the sake of argument. Then why stop there? Why not monitor all communications to also catch murderers and rapists and tax cheats? Why have a 4th amendment at all? What makes "terrorism" substantially different than any other crime?
- untog 11y ago
  Sure, why not? There are people out there that would happily have their communications monitored in order to catch murderers. Tax cheats, maybe not - no-one lives in fear of a tax cheat. I'm not saying this is a wise or sensible opinion, but people still hold it - not everyone is just "ill informed".
  - k33n 11y ago
    Not all opinions are created equal.
  - MawNicker 11y ago
    I disagree. They're ignorant. How could they not be? 3000 people died in the twin towers. Thats nothing. The spying is far scarier. They own us. Totally. No one can escape it. Anyone who intends subversive action can be targetted. They can be approached and manipulated by an agent who knows everything about them. The would-be-subversive can be nudged, sabotaged or flat out blackmailed. There won't be any more rights movements in this environment. At least not "real" ones. They will manufacture contrived movements to subdue us. Anyone who thinks this is right hasn't thought it through; They are wrong. If you're one of the people holding this opinion, you are wrong. At the very least you're wrong about them being properly informed.
    - tremon 11y ago
      Anyone who intends subversive action can be targetted But if you identify with your current government (for whatever rationale), should you not fear subversive action?
    - untog 11y ago