5 ms·

> Business Model? > We're a long way off from worrying about this, but we'll > never run an ad-supported business again. And Keybase will > never sell data.

by rburhum 11y ago

> Business Model? > We're a long way off from worrying about this, but we'll > never run an ad-supported business again. And Keybase will > never sell data. > [....] > But, as stated above, there is currently no pay model, and we're not trying to make money. > We're testing a product right now, and we'd like to bring public keys to the masses. I know a lot of people will see this as a pro, but honestly I see it as a huge negative. Raising capital doesn't mean that you "are not trying to make money". If you are not trying to make money, then you can't call it a "product".

andersonmvd 11y ago
It's indeed a very valid point, but they are already making a huge progress and few people noticed the abrupt change. When they launched here, it was full of negative comments, many questioning how much funding they got given that the idea 'wasn't very good', some security professionals said. Now their filesystem is making such a noise and they're getting and will get more users. It's a gamble to see if they could put the commercial layer on top of it or not. That's why funding startups is risky. The good business model may not get enough users and the absent business model may get many users and could try to monetize on top of it. It's a gamble, as usual.
swsieber 11y ago
They aren't trying to make money short term. That's the kicker. I think they'll be able to monetize it later in a way that doesn't impact the average Joe.
tomasien 11y ago
It's a negative but not a huge negative. I, and basically anyone sane, would prefer them to have a business model we could evaluate in our minds - it's just an unknown that isn't helpful. However, it's common and we can deal with it.
quadrangle 11y ago
Except that "product" means some real result of a creative process. There's zero about the term "product" that has any reliance on any element of money inherently.
- dchuk 11y ago
  prod·uct ˈprädəkt noun 1. an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale.
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    prod·uct \ˈprä-(ˌ)dəkt\ 2.a.1 Something produced ; 2.b Something resulting from or necessarily following from a set of conditions. This book is the product of many years of hard work. ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/product http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/product ) There's another sense (not listed) in which "product" specifically refers to prohibited drugs. I know, and you should know, that quadrangle wasn't using that sense. As regards the point being disputed, rburhum is plainly wrong to say "If you are not trying to make money, then you can't call it a 'product'", and quadrangle is completely correct to call him on it. You can call anything produced a "product". That is the meaning of "product".
    - rburhum 11y ago
      If the word "product" is used in the context of "Business Model" (as in right under the "Business Model" subtitle), then it is fair to assume the definition of Business product https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_(business) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_(business) and not the by-product of a process or anything drug related.
    - dchuk 11y ago
      He is not "plainly wrong" if the first definition of the word in question is literally supporting what he is saying. Your assertion of his correctness is what is plainly wrong.
      - thaumasiotes 11y ago
        Don't get too hung up on "the first definition". The first definition of product in M-W is "the number or expression resulting from the multiplication together of two or more numbers or expressions". That says absolutely nothing about what it means in any particular sentence. The bit rburhum objected to says "We're not trying to make money. We're testing a product right now." This is correct idiomatic use of the word "product" (in the sense "something we make"), and it's a relevant answer ("we don't have one") to the question "what is your business model?".
javajosh 11y ago
I've begun to look at software license fees as a kind of insurance policy against developers quitting the project :)
captn3m0 11y ago
I have seen lots of "security-software" get lost in the trap of monetising first and never making it alive because money becomes more important than a real secure product. I would much rather let them wait and build something good and _only_ then try to raise money.
furyofantares 11y ago
> If you are not trying to make money, then you can't call it a "product". You could, however, say you are testing a product. Which is probably how users should treat startups that don't know how they'll make money yet -- as a product in testing.
franciscop 11y ago
But it *is" a product, just not s commercial one (so far)
grey-area 11y ago
This is my biggest worry about using this service. It looks great, but if they don't make any money, how can they keep it running for free in the long term? They should charge users money for storage, not give it away for free - hopefully they have a plan to do so soon but they should make that clear. It would also be nice to be able to completely self-host, that would be really reassuring, not sure if it is possible but they could certainly sell that as a service and support it for businesses interested in running their own keyserver and encrypted file store.
- fuhrysteve 11y ago
  Totally agree. I don't want to invest my time using a service that I don't trust will be around in 5yrs. Would love to pay a few bucks a month for this service to help alleviate that fear. Making money is a good thing.

by rburhum 11y ago

andersonmvd 11y ago

It's indeed a very valid point, but they are already making a huge progress and few people noticed the abrupt change. When they launched here, it was full of negative comments, many questioning how much funding they got given that the idea 'wasn't very good', some security professionals said. Now their filesystem is making such a noise and they're getting and will get more users. It's a gamble to see if they could put the commercial layer on top of it or not. That's why funding startups is risky. The good business model may not get enough users and the absent business model may get many users and could try to monetize on top of it. It's a gamble, as usual.

swsieber 11y ago

They aren't trying to make money short term. That's the kicker. I think they'll be able to monetize it later in a way that doesn't impact the average Joe.

tomasien 11y ago

It's a negative but not a huge negative. I, and basically anyone sane, would prefer them to have a business model we could evaluate in our minds - it's just an unknown that isn't helpful. However, it's common and we can deal with it.

quadrangle 11y ago

Except that "product" means some real result of a creative process. There's zero about the term "product" that has any reliance on any element of money inherently.

dchuk 11y ago
prod·uct ˈprädəkt noun 1. an article or substance that is manufactured or refined for sale.
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  prod·uct \ˈprä-(ˌ)dəkt\ 2.a.1 Something produced ; 2.b Something resulting from or necessarily following from a set of conditions. This book is the product of many years of hard work. ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/product http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/product ) There's another sense (not listed) in which "product" specifically refers to prohibited drugs. I know, and you should know, that quadrangle wasn't using that sense. As regards the point being disputed, rburhum is plainly wrong to say "If you are not trying to make money, then you can't call it a 'product'", and quadrangle is completely correct to call him on it. You can call anything produced a "product". That is the meaning of "product".
  - rburhum 11y ago
    If the word "product" is used in the context of "Business Model" (as in right under the "Business Model" subtitle), then it is fair to assume the definition of Business product https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_(business) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_(business) and not the by-product of a process or anything drug related.
  - dchuk 11y ago
    He is not "plainly wrong" if the first definition of the word in question is literally supporting what he is saying. Your assertion of his correctness is what is plainly wrong.
    - thaumasiotes 11y ago
      Don't get too hung up on "the first definition". The first definition of product in M-W is "the number or expression resulting from the multiplication together of two or more numbers or expressions". That says absolutely nothing about what it means in any particular sentence. The bit rburhum objected to says "We're not trying to make money. We're testing a product right now." This is correct idiomatic use of the word "product" (in the sense "something we make"), and it's a relevant answer ("we don't have one") to the question "what is your business model?".

javajosh 11y ago

I've begun to look at software license fees as a kind of insurance policy against developers quitting the project :)

captn3m0 11y ago

I have seen lots of "security-software" get lost in the trap of monetising first and never making it alive because money becomes more important than a real secure product. I would much rather let them wait and build something good and _only_ then try to raise money.

furyofantares 11y ago

> If you are not trying to make money, then you can't call it a "product". You could, however, say you are testing a product. Which is probably how users should treat startups that don't know how they'll make money yet -- as a product in testing.

franciscop 11y ago

But it *is" a product, just not s commercial one (so far)

grey-area 11y ago

This is my biggest worry about using this service. It looks great, but if they don't make any money, how can they keep it running for free in the long term? They should charge users money for storage, not give it away for free - hopefully they have a plan to do so soon but they should make that clear. It would also be nice to be able to completely self-host, that would be really reassuring, not sure if it is possible but they could certainly sell that as a service and support it for businesses interested in running their own keyserver and encrypted file store.

fuhrysteve 11y ago
Totally agree. I don't want to invest my time using a service that I don't trust will be around in 5yrs. Would love to pay a few bucks a month for this service to help alleviate that fear. Making money is a good thing.