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> that can't handle refunds Please stop spreading this idiotic nonsense. Bitcoin, for all its faults, can handle refunds just fine. It just requires a differen

> that can't handle refunds Please stop spreading this idiotic nonsense. Bitcoin, for all its faults, can handle refunds just fine. It just requires a different model than CCs do. You might as well say "cash can't handle refunds"...

bduerst 11y ago
You're right, it requires a multisig escrow scheme which isn't new, unique to Bitcoin, and not innovative to payments, which is the context of this discussion.
abalone 11y ago
They mean Bitcoin can't guarantee refunds if you are ripped off by the seller. Which, of course, neither can cash. Which is why Visa's generally a better way to pay when you don't completely trust the seller (or even when you do).
- WatchDog 11y ago
  You can utilize bitcoin escrow services. Taking a look at the first service I found [1], the fees, the friction and the short period you can claim a refund within, make it seem like quite an inferior experience to using a credit card. [1] http://safepaybtc.com/ http://safepaybtc.com/
  - bduerst 11y ago
    Except when you need to do a charge back because the good is defective after the first day. Again, multisig escrow isn't new or innovative, and payments have evolved since then. Houses and shipping containers are as good at refunds as Bitcoin because they also use escrow - except their physical nature makes it harder to do infernational scams than with Bitcoin.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - abalone 11y ago
    Exactly. Escrow charges you 1.5%. Many credit cards pay you 1.5%. And they protect you for upwards of 90 days post-purchase, for free. It's free because it's built around agreements with a central authority that can delegate the power to police and reverse transactions. The whole point of Bitcoin is there's no central authority. So you have to layer on top of that much more expensive protection services, as you would with cash transactions.
    - rajacombinator 11y ago
      If it exists, you pay for it one way or another. In the case of credit cards the cost is just obfuscated in the form of higher final prices.
      - abalone 11y ago
        No. It is vastly less expensive to have a central authority reverse a transaction by flipping some bits vs. guaranteeing it via escrow or insurance. Additionally the oft-repeated claim that credit card fees lead to higher prices has two problems: 1. When Australia regulated away CC fees, prices did not decline. 2. In the U.S., which has higher interchange rates, most of that is refunded back to the consumer via reward programs (1-2% cashback).

bduerst 11y ago

You're right, it requires a multisig escrow scheme which isn't new, unique to Bitcoin, and not innovative to payments, which is the context of this discussion.

abalone 11y ago

They mean Bitcoin can't guarantee refunds if you are ripped off by the seller. Which, of course, neither can cash. Which is why Visa's generally a better way to pay when you don't completely trust the seller (or even when you do).

WatchDog 11y ago
You can utilize bitcoin escrow services. Taking a look at the first service I found [1], the fees, the friction and the short period you can claim a refund within, make it seem like quite an inferior experience to using a credit card. [1] http://safepaybtc.com/ http://safepaybtc.com/
- bduerst 11y ago
  Except when you need to do a charge back because the good is defective after the first day. Again, multisig escrow isn't new or innovative, and payments have evolved since then. Houses and shipping containers are as good at refunds as Bitcoin because they also use escrow - except their physical nature makes it harder to do infernational scams than with Bitcoin.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- abalone 11y ago
  Exactly. Escrow charges you 1.5%. Many credit cards pay you 1.5%. And they protect you for upwards of 90 days post-purchase, for free. It's free because it's built around agreements with a central authority that can delegate the power to police and reverse transactions. The whole point of Bitcoin is there's no central authority. So you have to layer on top of that much more expensive protection services, as you would with cash transactions.
  - rajacombinator 11y ago
    If it exists, you pay for it one way or another. In the case of credit cards the cost is just obfuscated in the form of higher final prices.
    - abalone 11y ago
      No. It is vastly less expensive to have a central authority reverse a transaction by flipping some bits vs. guaranteeing it via escrow or insurance. Additionally the oft-repeated claim that credit card fees lead to higher prices has two problems: 1. When Australia regulated away CC fees, prices did not decline. 2. In the U.S., which has higher interchange rates, most of that is refunded back to the consumer via reward programs (1-2% cashback).