5 ms·

Road Unpricing

32 points by jamesbowman 11y ago

rwmj 11y ago
I think Daedalus (writing in the 1970s/80s) didn't anticipate that we'd spend our time working for free to gain HN karma, Facebook likes and so on. No need to pay out cents at all, just ring the little bell!
- hobs 11y ago
  The only way that would work is if your bell rang in other people's cars. A big part of those gamification systems is a competitive/social aspect, so you can win against your friends and boast about your e-points. So, add a scoreboard for the best drivers on that mile of road, add some points, do a "best of the day", there are tons of options there.
Piskvorrr 11y ago
Sounds interesting. Alas, the last sentence has triggered a Cobra Effect alert. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect
- nathancahill 11y ago
  Yeah. The last sentence made me thing the whole bit was satire, and now I'm just confused.
  - stevetrewick 11y ago
    Spoilers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E._H._Jones https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E._H._Jones
- tempodox 11y ago
  It's presented as satire, but I still think an idea like this could actually work. There are many unexplored applications for gamification. If reason won't make us do “the right thing” we may as well try some tricks.
jacobolus 11y ago
In general, most roads shouldn’t have a price for most drivers, and rewards for maintaining a particular speed sounds stupid. However, we’d get big improvements to our urban/suburban city planning if we had (a) much less street parking, most of it metered; (b) looser or no parking requirements for houses and businesses written into the zoning laws, with mixed-use zoning allowing both smaller parking-free residential units and for-profit parking structures to pick up the slack from the reduction in free and required parking; (c) lower speed limits on urban streets encouraged by better street designs and enforced more strictly by traffic cops; (d) tolls on most highways; (e) much higher gas taxes to offset health and environmental costs of driving, and a removal of various automobile subsidies; (f) tolls for large vehicles like trucks which cause most road damage and cost the most in road maintenance, proportional to the amount of road wear they cause, which increases something like mass per wheel to the fourth power (a semi-trailer truck causes something like 1000x the road wear of a passenger car).
- yason 11y ago
  I agree on everything else but (a). Street parking actually makes streets better. It slows down traffic by reducing the available width (everybody keeps a safe margin to parked cars) and by causing disruptions (motorists entering or exiting a parking spot). Street parking also makes pedestrians feel safer as the barrier of parked cars insulate them from the moving traffic. A street with lots of parked cars generally also feels safer because human activity can be expected from time to time, unlike on a completely cleared street where there is only traffic.
gambiting 11y ago
"On the freeway, rewarding drivers 1 cent for every minute that they kept their speed at 50 mph resulted in a traffic planner’s dream: a smooth flow of vehicles all traveling at the optimal speed for maximum road utilization." I'd happily lose that "reward" to drive faster. If you want to keep everyone driving at a certain speed for extended periods of time, there is only one way that really works - average speed cameras as implemented in the UK. There are long stretches of the motorway(50 miles long for example) where you have a camera at the entry point and at every exit point - the camera reads your licence plate when entering and when leaving, calculating your average speed based on time. For the entire length of the limited zone people do drive at the limit, because everyone knows that there is absolutely no escape from the fine. At a regular speed camera or police checkpoint you can slow down momentarily only to accelerate again. There's no escaping average speed cameras.
- thechao 11y ago
  I used to spend a huge amount of my commute frustrated, tailing someone in the left lane, trying to pass. One day, it really "clicked" that the behavior was totally unproductive. However, I didn't want to just passively accept the traffic status quo. Instead, I opted for what I call my "slow drive": 1. Always drive in the right lane; 2. Always make sure the car ahead is slowly pulling away; 3. Always make sure there is space on my left for someone to pass me on the left. The 3rd rule is the hardest, and I will admit to some dickish behavior to stop other drivers from pacing me "on the left", or (worse) in my blind spot---mostly by very tightly hugging the center line, or by turning on my blinker and slowly moving into the left lane. As a practical nuts-and-bolts, I'm averaging about 5mph less than I used to, but a wash on total commute times---I'm usually at the front of lights, and jackrabbit to clear the intersection. My favorite part is seeing dozens of cars passing on the left at high speed, while (on one occasion) more than a dozen cars were very slowly plodding behind me. I'm certain there were angry people trying to turn right but, considering I'm going as much as 15mph below the posted limit, a little forethought would have them passing me---it is this very thoughtlessness that I'm targeting. There also a lot of rural one lane highways out where I'm at. For these, I go the posted limit; if I'm being tailed I pull over & yield the right of way. My commute, while still irritating and long, is much more pleasant.
adrianhon 11y ago
FYI Daedalus was a column by David E. H. Jones in New Scientist by a fictional inventor, containing all sorts of fun, odd, and satirical ideas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E._H._Jones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E._H._Jones
- gjm11 11y ago
  Some of these columns were collected in book form. The Inventions of Daedalus: http://www.amazon.com/Inventions-Daedalus-Compendium-Plausible-Schemes/dp/0716714132 http://www.amazon.com/Inventions-Daedalus-Compendium-Plausib... The Further Inventions of Daedalus: http://www.amazon.com/Further-Inventions-Daedalus-Compendium-Plausible/dp/0198504691 http://www.amazon.com/Further-Inventions-Daedalus-Compendium...
rascul 11y ago
Where does the money come from? Not just for the payouts, but to setup and maintain the program? Seems like there would be some major privacy concerns also. Pretty sure it's satire, though.

32 points by jamesbowman 11y ago

rwmj 11y ago

I think Daedalus (writing in the 1970s/80s) didn't anticipate that we'd spend our time working for free to gain HN karma, Facebook likes and so on. No need to pay out cents at all, just ring the little bell!

hobs 11y ago
The only way that would work is if your bell rang in other people's cars. A big part of those gamification systems is a competitive/social aspect, so you can win against your friends and boast about your e-points. So, add a scoreboard for the best drivers on that mile of road, add some points, do a "best of the day", there are tons of options there.

Piskvorrr 11y ago

Sounds interesting. Alas, the last sentence has triggered a Cobra Effect alert. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect

nathancahill 11y ago
Yeah. The last sentence made me thing the whole bit was satire, and now I'm just confused.
- stevetrewick 11y ago
  Spoilers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E._H._Jones https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E._H._Jones
tempodox 11y ago
It's presented as satire, but I still think an idea like this could actually work. There are many unexplored applications for gamification. If reason won't make us do “the right thing” we may as well try some tricks.

jacobolus 11y ago

In general, most roads shouldn’t have a price for most drivers, and rewards for maintaining a particular speed sounds stupid. However, we’d get big improvements to our urban/suburban city planning if we had (a) much less street parking, most of it metered; (b) looser or no parking requirements for houses and businesses written into the zoning laws, with mixed-use zoning allowing both smaller parking-free residential units and for-profit parking structures to pick up the slack from the reduction in free and required parking; (c) lower speed limits on urban streets encouraged by better street designs and enforced more strictly by traffic cops; (d) tolls on most highways; (e) much higher gas taxes to offset health and environmental costs of driving, and a removal of various automobile subsidies; (f) tolls for large vehicles like trucks which cause most road damage and cost the most in road maintenance, proportional to the amount of road wear they cause, which increases something like mass per wheel to the fourth power (a semi-trailer truck causes something like 1000x the road wear of a passenger car).

yason 11y ago
I agree on everything else but (a). Street parking actually makes streets better. It slows down traffic by reducing the available width (everybody keeps a safe margin to parked cars) and by causing disruptions (motorists entering or exiting a parking spot). Street parking also makes pedestrians feel safer as the barrier of parked cars insulate them from the moving traffic. A street with lots of parked cars generally also feels safer because human activity can be expected from time to time, unlike on a completely cleared street where there is only traffic.

gambiting 11y ago

"On the freeway, rewarding drivers 1 cent for every minute that they kept their speed at 50 mph resulted in a traffic planner’s dream: a smooth flow of vehicles all traveling at the optimal speed for maximum road utilization." I'd happily lose that "reward" to drive faster. If you want to keep everyone driving at a certain speed for extended periods of time, there is only one way that really works - average speed cameras as implemented in the UK. There are long stretches of the motorway(50 miles long for example) where you have a camera at the entry point and at every exit point - the camera reads your licence plate when entering and when leaving, calculating your average speed based on time. For the entire length of the limited zone people do drive at the limit, because everyone knows that there is absolutely no escape from the fine. At a regular speed camera or police checkpoint you can slow down momentarily only to accelerate again. There's no escaping average speed cameras.

thechao 11y ago
I used to spend a huge amount of my commute frustrated, tailing someone in the left lane, trying to pass. One day, it really "clicked" that the behavior was totally unproductive. However, I didn't want to just passively accept the traffic status quo. Instead, I opted for what I call my "slow drive": 1. Always drive in the right lane; 2. Always make sure the car ahead is slowly pulling away; 3. Always make sure there is space on my left for someone to pass me on the left. The 3rd rule is the hardest, and I will admit to some dickish behavior to stop other drivers from pacing me "on the left", or (worse) in my blind spot---mostly by very tightly hugging the center line, or by turning on my blinker and slowly moving into the left lane. As a practical nuts-and-bolts, I'm averaging about 5mph less than I used to, but a wash on total commute times---I'm usually at the front of lights, and jackrabbit to clear the intersection. My favorite part is seeing dozens of cars passing on the left at high speed, while (on one occasion) more than a dozen cars were very slowly plodding behind me. I'm certain there were angry people trying to turn right but, considering I'm going as much as 15mph below the posted limit, a little forethought would have them passing me---it is this very thoughtlessness that I'm targeting. There also a lot of rural one lane highways out where I'm at. For these, I go the posted limit; if I'm being tailed I pull over & yield the right of way. My commute, while still irritating and long, is much more pleasant.

adrianhon 11y ago

FYI Daedalus was a column by David E. H. Jones in New Scientist by a fictional inventor, containing all sorts of fun, odd, and satirical ideas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E._H._Jones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E._H._Jones

gjm11 11y ago
Some of these columns were collected in book form. The Inventions of Daedalus: http://www.amazon.com/Inventions-Daedalus-Compendium-Plausible-Schemes/dp/0716714132 http://www.amazon.com/Inventions-Daedalus-Compendium-Plausib... The Further Inventions of Daedalus: http://www.amazon.com/Further-Inventions-Daedalus-Compendium-Plausible/dp/0198504691 http://www.amazon.com/Further-Inventions-Daedalus-Compendium...

rascul 11y ago

Where does the money come from? Not just for the payouts, but to setup and maintain the program? Seems like there would be some major privacy concerns also. Pretty sure it's satire, though.