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You don't use any of the default iPhone apps? I find that hard to believe. What about these: - calculator - camera - clock - contacts - messages - phone - phot

by cname 11y ago

You don't use any of the default iPhone apps? I find that hard to believe. What about these: - calculator - camera - clock - contacts - messages - phone - photos - safari If you literally use none of these apps, I would be really surprised. Since we're sharing anecdotes: I've never had a problem with WiFi connectivity or Spotlight on El Capitan across multiple devices. I don't use iWork or Siri, so I can't speak to that. iCloud seems fine to me, but I don't use it extensively.

kbenson 11y ago
Calling someone a liar without providing any proof, or even good reasoning on why it's likely beyond the minimum "I find that hard to believe." provided, is an asshole move. Please don't do that. > Since we're sharing anecdotes Well, some of his points were anecdotes, some were observations about how he interacts with apple, and some were specific accounts of problematic functionality. > iCloud seems fine to me, but I don't use it extensively. The claims were that it had some poorly worded confirmations for deleting files when you unsync a device (subjective but testable), that iTunes has a history of destroying files on syncs (should be testable with some searching), and that iTunes will add apps to his computer after he deletes them from his phone (probably needs clarification, but definitely testable). Responding to a comment with an accusation that it's full of anecdotes and then responding to a portion of that comment which has real, testable assertions with a hedged anecdote is not a useful way to further relevant discussion.
- graeme 11y ago
  They didn't call me a liar. They just implied I was wrong. Big difference. You can be wrong without lying. I was wrong. I had forgotten that I do use several default apps, taking them for granted, and overstated my case.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    Since it was a statement by you about your own actions, saying he thinks you are wrong in that wording is calling you a liar. It could, and I think should, have been worded differently if the intent was to probe whether you were being hyperbolic or mistaken. E.g. "I'm not sure how someone would go about not using any Apple app, such as calculator, camera, clock, contacts, messages, phone, photos, safari. Do you not require a lot of what these apps provide, or have actually found good alternatives for each of them?" or "I really can't imagine not using any Apple apps. How do you get by without any of them?" In each of these cases, the problem is presented as a failure of the asker's imagination or knowledge, and we ask for clarification on this point. IMO, this is a much more civil way to converse than starting out by questioning the veracity of someone's statements about theirself.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      Lying means you believe X but say Y. If you believe Y, say Y, but the fact is X, that's not lying.
      - kbenson 11y ago
        I didn't say he lied, I said he was called a liar (but really, it's more that the strong implication was that he lied, that was overly strong wording on my part). Specifically, I think the wording "I find that hard to believe" has different connotations depending on whether you are talking to the root source of some information, or someone relaying that information. For example, if I state "I had chicken for lunch" and you reply "I find that hard to believe.", I think the implication is clear that you think I'm lying. Alternatively, if a third party says "kbenson had chicken for lunch" and you say "I find that hard to believe", there is not a clear implication that the third party is lying, nor that where they got the information from is lying, as there are multiple locations in the chain of authenticity of such a statement where a mistake or purposeful misrepresentation could have happened, so it's not clear where fault may lay. So, when someone states "I don't use any of the default iPhone apps" and another person replies directly to them with "I find that hard to believe", I think the implication that they are lying is clear (whether or not they were actually lying). Now, as for your specific assertion, I think you are obviously correct in the general sense. Although am interested in your opinion on how you would classify someone that is very loose with regard to their statements and their certainty regarding those statements. If I made a statement asserting something, but thought there might be a 15% chance I was wrong if I really looked into it, would I be lying if I stated it as a fact due to the false certainty implied? Specifically, in this case, if the author was 85% certain they didn't use any default Apple apps and stated as much without qualifying with "I think", or "probably", they may believe they are correct, but be ultimately wrong. Was it a lie to imply a higher level of certainty than existed? I'm not entirely sure how I would classify that. (Note: I don't mean to imply a specific state of mind for the original commenter, this is purely a thought experiment and that statement was handy).
        mikeash 11y ago
graeme 11y ago
Oops. I'll edit my comment. I use all of those. I was taking the ones that worked for granted. Well, actually, I don't use Safari, but that's a very particular use case. I wanted to block sites, so I disabled Safari, enabled parental controls, and am using the Google app because it's less convenient and less likely to suck me into time wasters. Though actually, the dictation search in Google now is better than Safari. And I like being able to have my homepage be a google search. Impossible in Safari.
x0x0 11y ago
well, it may be a bit of an exaggeration (I'm not the author), but do you think usage of clock to set alarms (or calculator) is strategic to apple's future? I hope not. Whereas use of the browser or maps or email services is. And most people I see using iphones don't use apple's offerings in those (not trivially substitutable) areas. As for my SO, syncing iphone 5 to mac (on 10.10) just doesn't work anymore. I'm going to have to spend hours debugging why the fuck not soon. And recently her iphone has stopped connecting to wifi. To make it connect, you have to delete the wifi credentials then reboot the device. She already walked through a reset with apple over the phone but it continues to happen. It's infuriating.
toyg 11y ago
I'm always baffled by heavy Calculator users, to be honest. I've never understood the popularity of dedicated calculator apps or widgets, on any platform. 90% of the time you can simply round numbers in your mind, and if precision is necessary for big numbers that's likely a job for Excel. Same for clock apps. Clock in your taskbar, sure; but who would ever start a dedicated clock app? I barely touch Contacts and always from other apps. Photos is terrible, but that's been the case for a while now, the obsession with hiding the filesystem has degenerated in an unusable interface (sharing in particular is just mystifying). Of your list, I do use Messages (you don't really get a choice, if you want to receive SMS texts...) and Safari (again, no real choice), as well as the Camera simply because I use it so little it's not worth my time looking for a better app.
- mixmastamyk 11y ago
  > Same for clock apps. That's where the alarm is, and personally I use it several times a day, to wake me up and to remember the occasional meeting or random events I would otherwise forget about. I hate ios Photos, mostly because of the white backgrounds however.
  - toyg 11y ago
    > That's where the alarm is Good point. I never really used alarms until Siri, because it was too cumbersome. Now setting and deleting alarms via Siri is probably the best voice-recognition experience I've ever had.
    - mixmastamyk 11y ago
      Interesting, its only a few taps to set an alarm, and I'd find "speaking to the cloud" cumbersome.
Thirdegree 11y ago
The only issue I have with spotlight on El Capitan is a strange issue where sometimes after entering the first character the cursor jumps to start again and overwrites the first character, turning a search for "text" which should open TextEdit to "ext" which opens Extractor.

by cname 11y ago

kbenson 11y ago

Calling someone a liar without providing any proof, or even good reasoning on why it's likely beyond the minimum "I find that hard to believe." provided, is an asshole move. Please don't do that. > Since we're sharing anecdotes Well, some of his points were anecdotes, some were observations about how he interacts with apple, and some were specific accounts of problematic functionality. > iCloud seems fine to me, but I don't use it extensively. The claims were that it had some poorly worded confirmations for deleting files when you unsync a device (subjective but testable), that iTunes has a history of destroying files on syncs (should be testable with some searching), and that iTunes will add apps to his computer after he deletes them from his phone (probably needs clarification, but definitely testable). Responding to a comment with an accusation that it's full of anecdotes and then responding to a portion of that comment which has real, testable assertions with a hedged anecdote is not a useful way to further relevant discussion.

graeme 11y ago
They didn't call me a liar. They just implied I was wrong. Big difference. You can be wrong without lying. I was wrong. I had forgotten that I do use several default apps, taking them for granted, and overstated my case.
- kbenson 11y ago
  Since it was a statement by you about your own actions, saying he thinks you are wrong in that wording is calling you a liar. It could, and I think should, have been worded differently if the intent was to probe whether you were being hyperbolic or mistaken. E.g. "I'm not sure how someone would go about not using any Apple app, such as calculator, camera, clock, contacts, messages, phone, photos, safari. Do you not require a lot of what these apps provide, or have actually found good alternatives for each of them?" or "I really can't imagine not using any Apple apps. How do you get by without any of them?" In each of these cases, the problem is presented as a failure of the asker's imagination or knowledge, and we ask for clarification on this point. IMO, this is a much more civil way to converse than starting out by questioning the veracity of someone's statements about theirself.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Lying means you believe X but say Y. If you believe Y, say Y, but the fact is X, that's not lying.
    - kbenson 11y ago
      I didn't say he lied, I said he was called a liar (but really, it's more that the strong implication was that he lied, that was overly strong wording on my part). Specifically, I think the wording "I find that hard to believe" has different connotations depending on whether you are talking to the root source of some information, or someone relaying that information. For example, if I state "I had chicken for lunch" and you reply "I find that hard to believe.", I think the implication is clear that you think I'm lying. Alternatively, if a third party says "kbenson had chicken for lunch" and you say "I find that hard to believe", there is not a clear implication that the third party is lying, nor that where they got the information from is lying, as there are multiple locations in the chain of authenticity of such a statement where a mistake or purposeful misrepresentation could have happened, so it's not clear where fault may lay. So, when someone states "I don't use any of the default iPhone apps" and another person replies directly to them with "I find that hard to believe", I think the implication that they are lying is clear (whether or not they were actually lying). Now, as for your specific assertion, I think you are obviously correct in the general sense. Although am interested in your opinion on how you would classify someone that is very loose with regard to their statements and their certainty regarding those statements. If I made a statement asserting something, but thought there might be a 15% chance I was wrong if I really looked into it, would I be lying if I stated it as a fact due to the false certainty implied? Specifically, in this case, if the author was 85% certain they didn't use any default Apple apps and stated as much without qualifying with "I think", or "probably", they may believe they are correct, but be ultimately wrong. Was it a lie to imply a higher level of certainty than existed? I'm not entirely sure how I would classify that. (Note: I don't mean to imply a specific state of mind for the original commenter, this is purely a thought experiment and that statement was handy).
      - mikeash 11y ago

graeme 11y ago

Oops. I'll edit my comment. I use all of those. I was taking the ones that worked for granted. Well, actually, I don't use Safari, but that's a very particular use case. I wanted to block sites, so I disabled Safari, enabled parental controls, and am using the Google app because it's less convenient and less likely to suck me into time wasters. Though actually, the dictation search in Google now is better than Safari. And I like being able to have my homepage be a google search. Impossible in Safari.

x0x0 11y ago

well, it may be a bit of an exaggeration (I'm not the author), but do you think usage of clock to set alarms (or calculator) is strategic to apple's future? I hope not. Whereas use of the browser or maps or email services is. And most people I see using iphones don't use apple's offerings in those (not trivially substitutable) areas. As for my SO, syncing iphone 5 to mac (on 10.10) just doesn't work anymore. I'm going to have to spend hours debugging why the fuck not soon. And recently her iphone has stopped connecting to wifi. To make it connect, you have to delete the wifi credentials then reboot the device. She already walked through a reset with apple over the phone but it continues to happen. It's infuriating.

toyg 11y ago

I'm always baffled by heavy Calculator users, to be honest. I've never understood the popularity of dedicated calculator apps or widgets, on any platform. 90% of the time you can simply round numbers in your mind, and if precision is necessary for big numbers that's likely a job for Excel. Same for clock apps. Clock in your taskbar, sure; but who would ever start a dedicated clock app? I barely touch Contacts and always from other apps. Photos is terrible, but that's been the case for a while now, the obsession with hiding the filesystem has degenerated in an unusable interface (sharing in particular is just mystifying). Of your list, I do use Messages (you don't really get a choice, if you want to receive SMS texts...) and Safari (again, no real choice), as well as the Camera simply because I use it so little it's not worth my time looking for a better app.

mixmastamyk 11y ago
> Same for clock apps. That's where the alarm is, and personally I use it several times a day, to wake me up and to remember the occasional meeting or random events I would otherwise forget about. I hate ios Photos, mostly because of the white backgrounds however.
- toyg 11y ago
  > That's where the alarm is Good point. I never really used alarms until Siri, because it was too cumbersome. Now setting and deleting alarms via Siri is probably the best voice-recognition experience I've ever had.
  - mixmastamyk 11y ago
    Interesting, its only a few taps to set an alarm, and I'd find "speaking to the cloud" cumbersome.

Thirdegree 11y ago

The only issue I have with spotlight on El Capitan is a strange issue where sometimes after entering the first character the cursor jumps to start again and overwrites the first character, turning a search for "text" which should open TextEdit to "ext" which opens Extractor.