4 ms·

This is a really good point. My gut tells me that if the old people were relying on the massive indebtedness of today's college attendees, then that has been a

by Frondo 11y ago

This is a really good point. My gut tells me that if the old people were relying on the massive indebtedness of today's college attendees, then that has been a cruel error on their part, an injustice that should be righted. Also, the artificiality of the debt--and the idea that a jubilee won't really hurt the creditors--is put into striking relief by the Rolling Jubilee. Right now, people are already buying that bad debt for pennies on the dollar, just to wipe it out. I'd like to see if anyone's modeled what would happen if that behavior were just turned up to 11, who'd be harmed, etc.

jasode 11y ago
>if the old people were relying on the massive indebtedness of today's college attendees, then that has been a cruel error on their part, Oh no no... I don't want people to picture an old hag sucking the blood of infants. To clarify, I was using "grandparents" as a single example to humanize what a "creditor" was. We have met the creditors and they are us.[0] When society complains about the unfairness of student loan debt, we tend to think of the creditors as something abstract and invisible. The total student debt is ~1.3 trillion[1]. If forced to picture who is owed that money, maybe college kids would think of some evil mustache twirling CEO of Goldman Sachs or Chase Bank. Sure, some fraction of a fraction of the interest payment does go to executives like them but the vast majority of the money goes to us. That 1.3 trillion is diffused throughout the economy. The pensions of police officers, firemen, and teachers. The car insurance premiums we pay is priced a certain way based on investments that point to those college loans. Etc etc. At the moment, the struggling college grads are "visible" and the creditors seem "invisible" but trust me, if a political movement gathers steam to ask Congress to forgive those loans, all those invisible creditors will come out of the woodwork at Congressional hearings and fight it. Trying to convince millions of us to zero out the balance sheets for those student loans will be a huge uphill battle. [0]riff on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_(comic_strip)#.22We_have_met_the_enemy_and_he_is_us..22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_(comic_strip)#.22We_have_... [1]http://www.marketwatch.com/story/every-second-americans-get-buried-under-another-3055-in-student-loan-debt-2015-06-10 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/every-second-americans-get-...
- TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
  No, this is incorrect. Firstly, the debt burden is only diffused because those "mustache twirling CEOs' decided it should be. Pensions used to work just fine before they were financialised by sharks. So did insurance. No one sane should be trying to increase the returns on a pension fund by gambling on student debt, on real estate loans, or on consumer credit. That was exactly the approach that caused the implosion of 2008 - or more specifically, it was "mustache twirling CEOs" hiding the fact that the investments they were selling as a sure thing were junk loans with a cheap wood veneer. Secondly, even if this wasn't true, the social and economic costs of an economy that runs on usury instead of productive investment are so predictably crippling that the hair cut, with associated uncontrolled demolition, will happen anyway. A debt jubilee would do a lot to restore confidence, because everyone will be able to stop looking nervously at everyone else's obligations and wondering if they're going to be able to meet them. Instead, some realism will be restored to book values. This would still be cataclysmic, because the financial industry needs to understand that it can no longer run on cocaine and bullshit. But it won't be the financial equivalent of a self-inflicted nuclear strike, which is a real possibility as things stand today.
  - forgetsusername 11y ago
    >A debt jubilee would do a lot to restore confidence, because everyone will be able to stop looking nervously at everyone else's obligations and wondering if they're going to be able to meet them. Oh yeah, I'm sure the creditors will be highly confident about future lending after a jubilee, because they went from wondering if debt will be repaid...to knowing it won't. Where do people come up with this stuff?
    - anigbrowl 11y ago
      You know what, fuck the creditors. Let them feel what it's like to have no money coming in for a while. If they don't want to lend any more they can spend down their capital or go and get jobs. The society we've built around the premise of mortgaging the future is not so fabulous that it can't be improved upon.
ThrustVectoring 11y ago
Imagine you're a healthy man of age 45. What can you do today that means you get taken care of when you're old? You can try to convince your children to do it, but that's fairly risky - and it doesn't scale well on a national level. Anything you build today is going to break down and undergo capital depreciation by the time you're unable to take care of yourself. If you help build a road, it needs maintenance. There's few good options at societal scale. One of them is to get the right to extract valuable resources and sit on them until later - this is what Norway's doing with their North Sea oil. The other is to make things, and trade them for promises to make things later. This is one of the huge fundamental forces acting to make debt for the young generation easier and cheaper - the previous generation needs to do things now to convince them that they need to part with their work later. It's not an error, it's there by design. The only way to get retirement savings on that massive of a level is to make things for people who can't afford them (yet).
gozur88 11y ago
>This is a really good point. My gut tells me that if the old people were relying on the massive indebtedness of today's college attendees, then that has been a cruel error on their part, an injustice that should be righted. It's a "cruel error" to lend somebody money?
- ruds 11y ago
  I think the cruel error is to (1) make something (nearly) necessary for a prosperous life, (2) make it ruinously expensive, and (3) offer to loan money to people who have little choice or financial sophistication (4) at terms that are highly favorable to the sophisticated creditor.
  - gozur88 11y ago
    Well, okay. Then the problem is the government, not the people actually doing the lending.

by Frondo 11y ago

jasode 11y ago

>if the old people were relying on the massive indebtedness of today's college attendees, then that has been a cruel error on their part, Oh no no... I don't want people to picture an old hag sucking the blood of infants. To clarify, I was using "grandparents" as a single example to humanize what a "creditor" was. We have met the creditors and they are us.[0] When society complains about the unfairness of student loan debt, we tend to think of the creditors as something abstract and invisible. The total student debt is ~1.3 trillion[1]. If forced to picture who is owed that money, maybe college kids would think of some evil mustache twirling CEO of Goldman Sachs or Chase Bank. Sure, some fraction of a fraction of the interest payment does go to executives like them but the vast majority of the money goes to us. That 1.3 trillion is diffused throughout the economy. The pensions of police officers, firemen, and teachers. The car insurance premiums we pay is priced a certain way based on investments that point to those college loans. Etc etc. At the moment, the struggling college grads are "visible" and the creditors seem "invisible" but trust me, if a political movement gathers steam to ask Congress to forgive those loans, all those invisible creditors will come out of the woodwork at Congressional hearings and fight it. Trying to convince millions of us to zero out the balance sheets for those student loans will be a huge uphill battle. [0]riff on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_(comic_strip)#.22We_have_met_the_enemy_and_he_is_us..22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_(comic_strip)#.22We_have_... [1]http://www.marketwatch.com/story/every-second-americans-get-buried-under-another-3055-in-student-loan-debt-2015-06-10 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/every-second-americans-get-...

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
No, this is incorrect. Firstly, the debt burden is only diffused because those "mustache twirling CEOs' decided it should be. Pensions used to work just fine before they were financialised by sharks. So did insurance. No one sane should be trying to increase the returns on a pension fund by gambling on student debt, on real estate loans, or on consumer credit. That was exactly the approach that caused the implosion of 2008 - or more specifically, it was "mustache twirling CEOs" hiding the fact that the investments they were selling as a sure thing were junk loans with a cheap wood veneer. Secondly, even if this wasn't true, the social and economic costs of an economy that runs on usury instead of productive investment are so predictably crippling that the hair cut, with associated uncontrolled demolition, will happen anyway. A debt jubilee would do a lot to restore confidence, because everyone will be able to stop looking nervously at everyone else's obligations and wondering if they're going to be able to meet them. Instead, some realism will be restored to book values. This would still be cataclysmic, because the financial industry needs to understand that it can no longer run on cocaine and bullshit. But it won't be the financial equivalent of a self-inflicted nuclear strike, which is a real possibility as things stand today.
- forgetsusername 11y ago
  >A debt jubilee would do a lot to restore confidence, because everyone will be able to stop looking nervously at everyone else's obligations and wondering if they're going to be able to meet them. Oh yeah, I'm sure the creditors will be highly confident about future lending after a jubilee, because they went from wondering if debt will be repaid...to knowing it won't. Where do people come up with this stuff?
  - anigbrowl 11y ago
    You know what, fuck the creditors. Let them feel what it's like to have no money coming in for a while. If they don't want to lend any more they can spend down their capital or go and get jobs. The society we've built around the premise of mortgaging the future is not so fabulous that it can't be improved upon.

ThrustVectoring 11y ago

Imagine you're a healthy man of age 45. What can you do today that means you get taken care of when you're old? You can try to convince your children to do it, but that's fairly risky - and it doesn't scale well on a national level. Anything you build today is going to break down and undergo capital depreciation by the time you're unable to take care of yourself. If you help build a road, it needs maintenance. There's few good options at societal scale. One of them is to get the right to extract valuable resources and sit on them until later - this is what Norway's doing with their North Sea oil. The other is to make things, and trade them for promises to make things later. This is one of the huge fundamental forces acting to make debt for the young generation easier and cheaper - the previous generation needs to do things now to convince them that they need to part with their work later. It's not an error, it's there by design. The only way to get retirement savings on that massive of a level is to make things for people who can't afford them (yet).

gozur88 11y ago

>This is a really good point. My gut tells me that if the old people were relying on the massive indebtedness of today's college attendees, then that has been a cruel error on their part, an injustice that should be righted. It's a "cruel error" to lend somebody money?

ruds 11y ago
I think the cruel error is to (1) make something (nearly) necessary for a prosperous life, (2) make it ruinously expensive, and (3) offer to loan money to people who have little choice or financial sophistication (4) at terms that are highly favorable to the sophisticated creditor.
- gozur88 11y ago
  Well, okay. Then the problem is the government, not the people actually doing the lending.