4 ms·

> - never give up your tool. basically, if you are working to force a door, but it's taking some time and someone says "let me give a try", don't take the bait.

by gist 11y ago

> - never give up your tool. basically, if you are working to force a door, but it's taking some time and someone says "let me give a try", don't take the bait. If someone else pops your door for you, you will never live it down. So macho! I wonder if you could expand on that as far as the culture in being a firefighter a bit. The only thing I know about this is obviously what I see on TV and in movies. I suspect that it's actually beneficial rather than detrimental to the necessary camaraderie in the group.

ludicast 11y ago
:) Partly it's because murphy's law says that you "loosened it" for the next guy. But also because confidence is a big part of the job. Once you start second-guessing yourself and listening to too many suggestions at once, you'll start to suck. Obviously all people have insights to give, and you should listen and absorb what you can, but most doors are unique and your opportunity to learn is proportional to your immediate involvement with the door right in front of you.
- gist 11y ago
  > Once you start second-guessing yourself and listening to too many suggestions at once, you'll start to suck. Wow do I ever agree with that and it's one of my bedrock principles actually. Having started and run my first business (years ago) with nobody to ask any questions and further not even knowing the business (not like it is now) and having to figure it out all on my own. Tremendously helpful to learning (but then again lives weren't at stake..)
monkmartinez 11y ago
Firefighter culture/behaviour, at least on my department, is very complicated. It often resembles toddlers fighting for toys in a sandbox and I mean it... calling us Toddlers is being nice. Literally 2 minutes later it can resemble team-work that would make General Patton proud. I do not watch firefighter shows or movies as a general rule, so I can not comment if they mirror reality. I don't think I could write about fire service culture in a comment on HN that would satisfy myself or my brothers and sisters in the service. It is just too complicated, at least from my perspective. The example he gave is day one stuff. Never give up washing the dishes, never give up the nozzle, never give up rolling hose, never give up tools, and so on... especially if you are the junior guy/gal. Seniority plays a big role in my department.
- ludicast 11y ago
  Agree 100% with everything you said: toddlers, teamwork, not-watching-movies-as-a-rule, and not giving up your tool is more an attitude to complete what you started.
- gist 11y ago
  I really admire what you guys do. Not something I could ever do at all. [1] [1] As opposed to reading success stories on HN where I think "I could do that easily.." or "luck played a large role in that success".
- giardini 11y ago
  "...never give up rolling hose, never give up tools, ..." This certainly provides insight into the deaths of 27 wildland firefighters who died disregarding orders to drop their heavy tools (so they could outrun a wildfire): "Drop Your Tools: An Allegory for Organizational Studies" by Karl Weick at http://www19.homepage.villanova.edu/gregory.gull/MBA8510.html/DropTools_Weick.htm http://www19.homepage.villanova.edu/gregory.gull/MBA8510.htm...
  - ludicast 11y ago
    That is fascinating, thanks. There definitely is point where the primary life hazard is us and we fail to realize it sometimes. Reminds me of the speech from The Edge. "Most people in the wilderness die of shame ... instead of thinking". That said, all fatal fire reports have one thing in common. All the people who read them think "I have no clue what I would have done if that was me".
    - JshWright 11y ago
      That's what intelligent, self-aware people think (on good days).
  - exhilaration 11y ago
    Superb article, thank you. Makes me think about my resistance to a manager telling me to drop a particular piece of software or tooling in favor of something else.

by gist 11y ago

ludicast 11y ago

:) Partly it's because murphy's law says that you "loosened it" for the next guy. But also because confidence is a big part of the job. Once you start second-guessing yourself and listening to too many suggestions at once, you'll start to suck. Obviously all people have insights to give, and you should listen and absorb what you can, but most doors are unique and your opportunity to learn is proportional to your immediate involvement with the door right in front of you.

gist 11y ago
> Once you start second-guessing yourself and listening to too many suggestions at once, you'll start to suck. Wow do I ever agree with that and it's one of my bedrock principles actually. Having started and run my first business (years ago) with nobody to ask any questions and further not even knowing the business (not like it is now) and having to figure it out all on my own. Tremendously helpful to learning (but then again lives weren't at stake..)

monkmartinez 11y ago

Firefighter culture/behaviour, at least on my department, is very complicated. It often resembles toddlers fighting for toys in a sandbox and I mean it... calling us Toddlers is being nice. Literally 2 minutes later it can resemble team-work that would make General Patton proud. I do not watch firefighter shows or movies as a general rule, so I can not comment if they mirror reality. I don't think I could write about fire service culture in a comment on HN that would satisfy myself or my brothers and sisters in the service. It is just too complicated, at least from my perspective. The example he gave is day one stuff. Never give up washing the dishes, never give up the nozzle, never give up rolling hose, never give up tools, and so on... especially if you are the junior guy/gal. Seniority plays a big role in my department.

ludicast 11y ago
Agree 100% with everything you said: toddlers, teamwork, not-watching-movies-as-a-rule, and not giving up your tool is more an attitude to complete what you started.
gist 11y ago
I really admire what you guys do. Not something I could ever do at all. [1] [1] As opposed to reading success stories on HN where I think "I could do that easily.." or "luck played a large role in that success".
giardini 11y ago
"...never give up rolling hose, never give up tools, ..." This certainly provides insight into the deaths of 27 wildland firefighters who died disregarding orders to drop their heavy tools (so they could outrun a wildfire): "Drop Your Tools: An Allegory for Organizational Studies" by Karl Weick at http://www19.homepage.villanova.edu/gregory.gull/MBA8510.html/DropTools_Weick.htm http://www19.homepage.villanova.edu/gregory.gull/MBA8510.htm...
- ludicast 11y ago
  That is fascinating, thanks. There definitely is point where the primary life hazard is us and we fail to realize it sometimes. Reminds me of the speech from The Edge. "Most people in the wilderness die of shame ... instead of thinking". That said, all fatal fire reports have one thing in common. All the people who read them think "I have no clue what I would have done if that was me".
  - JshWright 11y ago
    That's what intelligent, self-aware people think (on good days).
- exhilaration 11y ago
  Superb article, thank you. Makes me think about my resistance to a manager telling me to drop a particular piece of software or tooling in favor of something else.