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The Green Bay packers have an interesting approach to this problem, although it requires a fanatical fan base and special ownership provisions, and the fact tha

The Green Bay packers have an interesting approach to this problem, although it requires a fanatical fan base and special ownership provisions, and the fact that the team can't leave Green Bay (without a vote by the shareholders, who are all fans, which will never, ever, happen). When they want to improve their stadium, they issue stock and sell more season tickets. This works because Packers stock cannot be sold or traded after purchase, and a season ticket is, for many working class Wisconsin families, an heirloom. A friend who's a Wisconsin native was put on the waiting list for season tickets at birth, and is in his parents' will to inherit his mother's ticket. His mom is probably going to die before he breaks 10,000th on the list, so that position will go to his kids. It's insane like that. But it means that the taxpayers of Wisconsin, including those of us who, like myself, could really care less about football, don't have to foot the bill for maintenance and improvements to the Packers' stadium. But again, the Packers have a uniquely fanatical fan base, were created with provisions to keep them in Green Bay forever, and are owned by the fans.

voidlogic 11y ago
>without a vote by the shareholders, who are all fans Doesn't the German football team system work like this too? I think it at least does for Bayern.
- sehr 11y ago
  Yep! The club/members have to own >50% of the club to compete in the German pro leagues In the past, private ownership wasn't even allowed but that changed in the 90s. Even cooler, the 2 largest football clubs on earth, Real Madrid & Barcelona are completely fan owned. They even vote for the presidency of the club! So refreshing compared to American sports, though without a salary cap their competitions are 1000x more predictable & boring. (ex. RM won their league match on Sunday 6-0, and Barca just won today 7-0)
  - tragic 11y ago
    I guess the biggest difference is that, in European soccer (especially in lovely England), the clubs are vastly more powerful than the leagues and governing bodies of the sport. In the NFL, NBA etc, the opposite seems to be the case - the teams are more like suppliers to the league. Both systems, to put it mildly, have their warts.
stevefeinstein 11y ago
Well, it's a good thing they've locked in a team, because no one in their right mind would build one in Green Bay Wisconsin today when there are fools in warmer climates literally throwing money at anyone who will move a team.
- rsync 11y ago
  They are just finishing the new stadium in Minneapolis, which is colder, on average, than green bay[1] ... [1] average low temp in MPLS, in January, is 8F, as compared to 9F in Green Bay.
  - jessaustin 11y ago
    That stadium is a heated dome.
    - rsync 11y ago
      ... unfortunately.
- jkaunisv1 11y ago
  NFL disruption tactic: calculate sites of new major cities based on projected global temperatures, ice cap melt and rising water changing coastlines; start minor league in those cities. Wait.
Bricejm 11y ago
Most was actually covered by a sales tax: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/money/2015/09/29/lambeau-field-sales-tax-history/32572333/ http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/money/2015/09/29/l...
nhebb 11y ago
The NFL changed the ownership rules, and the Green Bay model cannot be repeated elsewhere. "The NFL does not allow corporate membership. Instead, it requires clubs to be wholly owned either by a single owner, or small group of owners, and requires that at least one owner owns a 1/3 stake in the team. The Packers are granted an exemption to this rule, as they have been a publicly owned corporation since before the rule was in place." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers_Board_of_Directors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers_Board_of_Dir...
- scoofy 11y ago
  That seems extremely anti-competitive. I wonder if that rule could be challenged.
  - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
    Private company, go start yer own football league if you don't like it, etc.
    - michaelbuddy 11y ago
      non profit with tax breaks you mean
      - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
        When it's convenient, yup, doing a public service, keeping kids off drugs, stuff like that.
      - tamana 11y ago
        Any industry can form a similar nonprofit trade association. The members pay tax.
    - rickycook 11y ago
      that's a pretty horrendous way to change what's morally wrong with the world
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
FussyZeus 11y ago
I'm glad there are other Wisconsinites who don't give a shit about football. HELLO FRIEND That said, those of us in Brown County still got stuck with a 0.5% tax hike to pay for the stadium on sales tax, which I wouldn't mind so much except it stuck around about 4 years longer than it was supposed to. Being a resident close by I can attest to what the evidence says: The argument that stadiums augment the local economy is hoo-hah. The area around the stadium is more built up, sure, and plenty of businesses do well there but the vast majority of the money goes right into the Stadium and of course the NFL, the only exceptions being the local motels (which can't be doing that well, they all look like slum housing). Honestly I'd pay the 0.5% tax hike forever if we got rid of the stupid thing and stopped locking up the Green Bay metro area every Sunday. Edit: For the record, it's not the amount of the tax hike, I realize I'm bitching over pennies. It's the principle that I'm subsidizing an industry that makes so much fucking money they have no business getting tax breaks on toilet paper, let alone facilities like Lambeau Field.
- tamana 11y ago
  How much tax does Packer County pay?
tosseraccount 11y ago
Clarification: The corporate structure of the Green Bay Packers is shrouded in a mystery that would make a venture funded Silicon Valley company blush. There are are multiple classes of stock. The later issued ones are indeed basically paper trinkets bought by rabid "cheese heads" so they could claim "ownership". There is apparently no reason the owners of the few voting shares couldn't change the bylaws. Rumor is that the NFL had to step in the 1980s (90s ?) and force the Packer owners to run a better shop (and stop paying themselves dividends). Same rumor mill reports they had to step in and force the New York Giants (who were paralyzed by two incompetent owners that owned 50% each) to run a better ship. Note that this intervention turned around the fortunes these two teams which had earned reputations for gridiron incompetence. Miracle in the Meadowlands? Bart Starr coach? Both the Packers and Giants have been very competitive, well run franchises since.
- cafard 11y ago
  Don't know about the Packers, but the league definitely intervened with the Giants. One of the Maras sold out to the Tisches, the other one is is still there.
ec109685 11y ago
How do you sell more season tickets to raise money? There are only so many seats and like you said, ticket rights are passed down from generation to generation. And like other folks said, there is a sales tax.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
fluxquanta 11y ago
Green Bay may be off the hook for NFL stadium costs, but Wisconsin's still paying at least a quarter of a billion dollars for the new Bucks arena.
anon4 11y ago
> could really care less Annnd that's a downvote. This community prides itself on good, honest discourse and high-level language. Please don't bring us down to the level of a 7-year-old redneck.
- dang 11y ago
  As far as I'm concerned this community could care less about people using idiomatic English, but we care a lot about personal rudeness in comments. Please don't do this again. If you think a comment is bad for Hacker News, you're welcome to flag it, but not to post abusive noise.

voidlogic 11y ago

>without a vote by the shareholders, who are all fans Doesn't the German football team system work like this too? I think it at least does for Bayern.

sehr 11y ago
Yep! The club/members have to own >50% of the club to compete in the German pro leagues In the past, private ownership wasn't even allowed but that changed in the 90s. Even cooler, the 2 largest football clubs on earth, Real Madrid & Barcelona are completely fan owned. They even vote for the presidency of the club! So refreshing compared to American sports, though without a salary cap their competitions are 1000x more predictable & boring. (ex. RM won their league match on Sunday 6-0, and Barca just won today 7-0)
- tragic 11y ago
  I guess the biggest difference is that, in European soccer (especially in lovely England), the clubs are vastly more powerful than the leagues and governing bodies of the sport. In the NFL, NBA etc, the opposite seems to be the case - the teams are more like suppliers to the league. Both systems, to put it mildly, have their warts.

stevefeinstein 11y ago

Well, it's a good thing they've locked in a team, because no one in their right mind would build one in Green Bay Wisconsin today when there are fools in warmer climates literally throwing money at anyone who will move a team.

rsync 11y ago
They are just finishing the new stadium in Minneapolis, which is colder, on average, than green bay[1] ... [1] average low temp in MPLS, in January, is 8F, as compared to 9F in Green Bay.
- jessaustin 11y ago
  That stadium is a heated dome.
  - rsync 11y ago
    ... unfortunately.
jkaunisv1 11y ago
NFL disruption tactic: calculate sites of new major cities based on projected global temperatures, ice cap melt and rising water changing coastlines; start minor league in those cities. Wait.

Bricejm 11y ago

Most was actually covered by a sales tax: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/money/2015/09/29/lambeau-field-sales-tax-history/32572333/ http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/money/2015/09/29/l...

nhebb 11y ago

The NFL changed the ownership rules, and the Green Bay model cannot be repeated elsewhere. "The NFL does not allow corporate membership. Instead, it requires clubs to be wholly owned either by a single owner, or small group of owners, and requires that at least one owner owns a 1/3 stake in the team. The Packers are granted an exemption to this rule, as they have been a publicly owned corporation since before the rule was in place." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers_Board_of_Directors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Bay_Packers_Board_of_Dir...

scoofy 11y ago
That seems extremely anti-competitive. I wonder if that rule could be challenged.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
  Private company, go start yer own football league if you don't like it, etc.
  - michaelbuddy 11y ago
    non profit with tax breaks you mean
    - fnordfnordfnord 11y ago
      When it's convenient, yup, doing a public service, keeping kids off drugs, stuff like that.
    - tamana 11y ago
      Any industry can form a similar nonprofit trade association. The members pay tax.
  - rickycook 11y ago
    that's a pretty horrendous way to change what's morally wrong with the world

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

FussyZeus 11y ago

I'm glad there are other Wisconsinites who don't give a shit about football. HELLO FRIEND That said, those of us in Brown County still got stuck with a 0.5% tax hike to pay for the stadium on sales tax, which I wouldn't mind so much except it stuck around about 4 years longer than it was supposed to. Being a resident close by I can attest to what the evidence says: The argument that stadiums augment the local economy is hoo-hah. The area around the stadium is more built up, sure, and plenty of businesses do well there but the vast majority of the money goes right into the Stadium and of course the NFL, the only exceptions being the local motels (which can't be doing that well, they all look like slum housing). Honestly I'd pay the 0.5% tax hike forever if we got rid of the stupid thing and stopped locking up the Green Bay metro area every Sunday. Edit: For the record, it's not the amount of the tax hike, I realize I'm bitching over pennies. It's the principle that I'm subsidizing an industry that makes so much fucking money they have no business getting tax breaks on toilet paper, let alone facilities like Lambeau Field.

tamana 11y ago
How much tax does Packer County pay?

tosseraccount 11y ago

Clarification: The corporate structure of the Green Bay Packers is shrouded in a mystery that would make a venture funded Silicon Valley company blush. There are are multiple classes of stock. The later issued ones are indeed basically paper trinkets bought by rabid "cheese heads" so they could claim "ownership". There is apparently no reason the owners of the few voting shares couldn't change the bylaws. Rumor is that the NFL had to step in the 1980s (90s ?) and force the Packer owners to run a better shop (and stop paying themselves dividends). Same rumor mill reports they had to step in and force the New York Giants (who were paralyzed by two incompetent owners that owned 50% each) to run a better ship. Note that this intervention turned around the fortunes these two teams which had earned reputations for gridiron incompetence. Miracle in the Meadowlands? Bart Starr coach? Both the Packers and Giants have been very competitive, well run franchises since.

cafard 11y ago
Don't know about the Packers, but the league definitely intervened with the Giants. One of the Maras sold out to the Tisches, the other one is is still there.

ec109685 11y ago

How do you sell more season tickets to raise money? There are only so many seats and like you said, ticket rights are passed down from generation to generation. And like other folks said, there is a sales tax.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

fluxquanta 11y ago

Green Bay may be off the hook for NFL stadium costs, but Wisconsin's still paying at least a quarter of a billion dollars for the new Bucks arena.

anon4 11y ago

> could really care less Annnd that's a downvote. This community prides itself on good, honest discourse and high-level language. Please don't bring us down to the level of a 7-year-old redneck.

dang 11y ago
As far as I'm concerned this community could care less about people using idiomatic English, but we care a lot about personal rudeness in comments. Please don't do this again. If you think a comment is bad for Hacker News, you're welcome to flag it, but not to post abusive noise.