3 ms·

I agree almost completely, but I think it's not adequate to simply point the finger at the producers, but also at the consumers, who demand prices so low that c

I agree almost completely, but I think it's not adequate to simply point the finger at the producers, but also at the consumers, who demand prices so low that callous cruelty is essentially guaranteed. Of course, overall, we're mishandling resources massively to channel agricultural output into livestock, we need to actively reward eating less meat, rather than subsidizing ever more of it.

tcfunk 11y ago
Yes, definitely. It was unfortunate that the recent Dietary Guidelines issued by the USDA did not include more meat-related stipulations. Not that the USDA report is the end-all-be-all, but I do think it has substantial power over the decisions we (Americans in general) make at the grocery store.
cmurf 11y ago
Yes, consumers are stupid, but ignorance is bliss and they like it this way. Put all the pro capital punishment people into a room and ask them to vote on a law requiring public executions in the town square and oh, no we don't want that, we like state sponsored murder to be behind closed doors, the children after all! Etc. It's a defect in our culture. We're babies. We don't like the reality of some of our choices, it causes cognitive dissonance, so we just white wash reality, and bad mouth the people who try to point to reality, just to coddle the ignorant. And now they don't have to think about it, AND OH MY GOD IT'S ALL SO MUCH BETTER WITH BACON!
Paul-ish 11y ago
This appears to be similar to a Lemons market [1]. There is probably a better term for it in this case, but basically the consumer doesn't know what they are getting. They see a price point and maybe a fat %, but they don't know how the animal was treated, so they naturally will go for the lower price point items. This means producers will cut corners where it saves on cost, because they will not be held accountable. A solution would be some form of regulation controlling the way animals can be slaughtered. Whistle-blower laws should protect people who report violations, rather than the opposite we see here with ag-gag laws. It is the same thing with the unsanitary practices exposed in The Jungle. Consumers didn't know know that their food was being processed in unsanitary ways. The exposure provided by Sinclair's book eventually led to the formation of an organization that would become the FDA, which regulates sanitary conditions for food production in the United States. * [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
Grishnakh 11y ago
Oh please. Don't try to blame the consumers for this one. Some person at a grocery store or a restaurant has no realistic way of knowing how the meat he's buying was raised and slaughtered. What's he going to do, arrange a farm tour every time he gets something to eat? The best you can get is places like Whole Foods which claim their meat is more ethically treated, but even here you're just relying on their word and their fancy marketing. Moreover, the middle class in this country is disappearing, so people on the bottom end have less and less money to spend on decent food, so of course they're going to get whatever's cheapest. It's not like the grocery store advertises, "buy this cheaper meat here where the cows have been tortured to death, rather than this more expensive meat where they haven't". You can only blame consumers when the consumers actually have sufficient information to make an informed choice, and make the wrong choice anyway. Laws like this aim precisely to prevent consumers from having this information. This is why we need decent government to make capitalism and "free markets" work as well as possible: it's the government's job to keep the playing field level and fair, and laws like this are counter to this goal because they tilt the field in favor of the most evil companies who want to hide how they make stuff so that consumers can't make an informed choice.

tcfunk 11y ago

Yes, definitely. It was unfortunate that the recent Dietary Guidelines issued by the USDA did not include more meat-related stipulations. Not that the USDA report is the end-all-be-all, but I do think it has substantial power over the decisions we (Americans in general) make at the grocery store.

cmurf 11y ago

Yes, consumers are stupid, but ignorance is bliss and they like it this way. Put all the pro capital punishment people into a room and ask them to vote on a law requiring public executions in the town square and oh, no we don't want that, we like state sponsored murder to be behind closed doors, the children after all! Etc. It's a defect in our culture. We're babies. We don't like the reality of some of our choices, it causes cognitive dissonance, so we just white wash reality, and bad mouth the people who try to point to reality, just to coddle the ignorant. And now they don't have to think about it, AND OH MY GOD IT'S ALL SO MUCH BETTER WITH BACON!

Paul-ish 11y ago

This appears to be similar to a Lemons market [1]. There is probably a better term for it in this case, but basically the consumer doesn't know what they are getting. They see a price point and maybe a fat %, but they don't know how the animal was treated, so they naturally will go for the lower price point items. This means producers will cut corners where it saves on cost, because they will not be held accountable. A solution would be some form of regulation controlling the way animals can be slaughtered. Whistle-blower laws should protect people who report violations, rather than the opposite we see here with ag-gag laws. It is the same thing with the unsanitary practices exposed in The Jungle. Consumers didn't know know that their food was being processed in unsanitary ways. The exposure provided by Sinclair's book eventually led to the formation of an organization that would become the FDA, which regulates sanitary conditions for food production in the United States. * [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

Grishnakh 11y ago

Oh please. Don't try to blame the consumers for this one. Some person at a grocery store or a restaurant has no realistic way of knowing how the meat he's buying was raised and slaughtered. What's he going to do, arrange a farm tour every time he gets something to eat? The best you can get is places like Whole Foods which claim their meat is more ethically treated, but even here you're just relying on their word and their fancy marketing. Moreover, the middle class in this country is disappearing, so people on the bottom end have less and less money to spend on decent food, so of course they're going to get whatever's cheapest. It's not like the grocery store advertises, "buy this cheaper meat here where the cows have been tortured to death, rather than this more expensive meat where they haven't". You can only blame consumers when the consumers actually have sufficient information to make an informed choice, and make the wrong choice anyway. Laws like this aim precisely to prevent consumers from having this information. This is why we need decent government to make capitalism and "free markets" work as well as possible: it's the government's job to keep the playing field level and fair, and laws like this are counter to this goal because they tilt the field in favor of the most evil companies who want to hide how they make stuff so that consumers can't make an informed choice.