4 ms·

I really wish to hear from people who support leftist causes what they think of this and if there's anything, any hypothetical event, that they would accept, if

by fiatjaf 11y ago

I really wish to hear from people who support leftist causes what they think of this and if there's anything, any hypothetical event, that they would accept, if happened, as a proof that leftist policies are bad.

cjbprime 11y ago
What do you mean by leftist? It's obviously a continuum -- many successful European countries self-describe their governments as socialist and it's working well for them. If you only think of the corrupt and incompetent governments as the leftist ones, it's a truism that their policies are failing.
mvaliente2001 11y ago
I'm not sure if I qualify as leftist, but I can answer your questions. Is there anything that makes me accept that leftists plicies are bad? Yes. Evidence, like Venezuela's example, prove that some leftists policies are bad. The current government and the policies it have taken are the only responsible for the current inflation and product scarcety. But that doesn't mean that every leftist policy is bad. For example, the Venezuela government started programs to eliminate analphabetism, increased the number of doctors and free hospitals (in a program with the help of Cuba), reduced the infant death rate, increased the education budget, the access to potable water and other things like that. Granted, none of these measures are leftist per se, but also, these are not the things a right wing government cares about (at least not our right wing governments). I think the reason so many people in Latin America is leftist is not ideology. It's simply that the other option is not liberalism, free markets and laisse faire. The alternative is chronism, medieval institutions (feudalism is alive in a lot of places), privatization of earnings and nationalization of loses.
- fiatjaf 11y ago
  Thank you for being the only one to answer my question. But let me make another one. We will not agree on an answer, you don't even have to reply if you don't want, but I want to ask anyway: you don't see any relationship between the reasoning behind free hospitals and the Venezuela economic collapse?
  - mvaliente2001 11y ago
    Relationship between some improvement in health services and economic collapse? No. I think the economic trouble is due to a bigger, wider mismanagement. Health and education are just a drop of water that could (and should) remain untouched even after the prices of oil went down. When I talked about an increase in health and education expenditures, I was talking about increase in the percentage of the budget, so they were done at expense of other things, and it began before the increase in oil prices. The years previous to Chavez, the health budget was 3.5-4.5% and it went up to 6.0%, and remained above 5.0 up to 2010. As you can see, these are not exorbitant expenses, and they are below other countries' expenditures like Uruguay, Tanzania or Uganda [1]. The economical crisis is not because the government increasing expenditures in some basic human needs, but because there hasn't been a cut down anything at all. There are a lot of valid criticisms that can be done to Venezuela's government, but expending a little bit more in its people is not one, in my opinion. [1] http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS
mikeash 11y ago
You'd need to define "leftist causes" a little more specifically. For example, I support socialized medicine, but don't support nationalizing the economy or strict capital controls. Do I qualify or not? Assuming I do, am I allowed to point out that Venezuela's problems are more likely due to stuff like the last two?
chadnickbok 11y ago
Its not exactly hard to come up with a counter-point on right-wing policy here using the same, broad logic. Putin's Russia is having similar issues with an unbalanced budget due to a low oil price - would you say that his mistake is leftist causes? At the heart of both countries current circumstances are _populist_ causes, and it seems to be the combination of populism and oil dependency that's at the heart of Venezuela's current problems. In short, relying on the price of a commodity being at or above an historically high level to balance your budget is going to lead to large blow-outs in your budget if the price falls drastically. The comparison to Norway is a good one simply because they created a buffer-fund for handling prices swings. Left or right, that seems like sound economic policy.
ssalazar 11y ago
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession I really wish to hear from people who support rightist causes what they think of this and if there's anything, any hypothetical event, that they would accept, if happened, as a proof that rightist policies are bad. If you actually read the article they are quite reticent to blame socialism as the root cause but rather economic mismanagement and cronyism. This is a feature of many Latin American states regardless of left or right politics. In contrast socialism seems to be working just fine in Canada and Northern Europe. In any case the current surge of left-leaning politics in the US is a symptom of massive economic inequality. If rightist politics had an answer for that, anything other than "just work harder," then people wouldn't be so quick to look to the left.
how2 11y ago
> that they would accept, if happened, as a proof that leftist policies are bad. Nothing. It's a belief based on intentions, not on outcomes.
Apocryphon 11y ago
Nationalizing industries is not inherently a leftist thing. There have been despotic regimes who were not leftist and seized control of means of production. And there are plenty of leftist governments that don't nationalize industries.

by fiatjaf 11y ago

cjbprime 11y ago

What do you mean by leftist? It's obviously a continuum -- many successful European countries self-describe their governments as socialist and it's working well for them. If you only think of the corrupt and incompetent governments as the leftist ones, it's a truism that their policies are failing.

mvaliente2001 11y ago

I'm not sure if I qualify as leftist, but I can answer your questions. Is there anything that makes me accept that leftists plicies are bad? Yes. Evidence, like Venezuela's example, prove that some leftists policies are bad. The current government and the policies it have taken are the only responsible for the current inflation and product scarcety. But that doesn't mean that every leftist policy is bad. For example, the Venezuela government started programs to eliminate analphabetism, increased the number of doctors and free hospitals (in a program with the help of Cuba), reduced the infant death rate, increased the education budget, the access to potable water and other things like that. Granted, none of these measures are leftist per se, but also, these are not the things a right wing government cares about (at least not our right wing governments). I think the reason so many people in Latin America is leftist is not ideology. It's simply that the other option is not liberalism, free markets and laisse faire. The alternative is chronism, medieval institutions (feudalism is alive in a lot of places), privatization of earnings and nationalization of loses.

fiatjaf 11y ago
Thank you for being the only one to answer my question. But let me make another one. We will not agree on an answer, you don't even have to reply if you don't want, but I want to ask anyway: you don't see any relationship between the reasoning behind free hospitals and the Venezuela economic collapse?
- mvaliente2001 11y ago
  Relationship between some improvement in health services and economic collapse? No. I think the economic trouble is due to a bigger, wider mismanagement. Health and education are just a drop of water that could (and should) remain untouched even after the prices of oil went down. When I talked about an increase in health and education expenditures, I was talking about increase in the percentage of the budget, so they were done at expense of other things, and it began before the increase in oil prices. The years previous to Chavez, the health budget was 3.5-4.5% and it went up to 6.0%, and remained above 5.0 up to 2010. As you can see, these are not exorbitant expenses, and they are below other countries' expenditures like Uruguay, Tanzania or Uganda [1]. The economical crisis is not because the government increasing expenditures in some basic human needs, but because there hasn't been a cut down anything at all. There are a lot of valid criticisms that can be done to Venezuela's government, but expending a little bit more in its people is not one, in my opinion. [1] http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS

mikeash 11y ago

You'd need to define "leftist causes" a little more specifically. For example, I support socialized medicine, but don't support nationalizing the economy or strict capital controls. Do I qualify or not? Assuming I do, am I allowed to point out that Venezuela's problems are more likely due to stuff like the last two?

chadnickbok 11y ago

Its not exactly hard to come up with a counter-point on right-wing policy here using the same, broad logic. Putin's Russia is having similar issues with an unbalanced budget due to a low oil price - would you say that his mistake is leftist causes? At the heart of both countries current circumstances are _populist_ causes, and it seems to be the combination of populism and oil dependency that's at the heart of Venezuela's current problems. In short, relying on the price of a commodity being at or above an historically high level to balance your budget is going to lead to large blow-outs in your budget if the price falls drastically. The comparison to Norway is a good one simply because they created a buffer-fund for handling prices swings. Left or right, that seems like sound economic policy.

ssalazar 11y ago

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession I really wish to hear from people who support rightist causes what they think of this and if there's anything, any hypothetical event, that they would accept, if happened, as a proof that rightist policies are bad. If you actually read the article they are quite reticent to blame socialism as the root cause but rather economic mismanagement and cronyism. This is a feature of many Latin American states regardless of left or right politics. In contrast socialism seems to be working just fine in Canada and Northern Europe. In any case the current surge of left-leaning politics in the US is a symptom of massive economic inequality. If rightist politics had an answer for that, anything other than "just work harder," then people wouldn't be so quick to look to the left.

how2 11y ago

> that they would accept, if happened, as a proof that leftist policies are bad. Nothing. It's a belief based on intentions, not on outcomes.

Apocryphon 11y ago

Nationalizing industries is not inherently a leftist thing. There have been despotic regimes who were not leftist and seized control of means of production. And there are plenty of leftist governments that don't nationalize industries.