8 ms·

German scientists to conduct nuclear fusion experiment today

100 points by miiiiiike 11y ago

leaveyou 11y ago
The Guardian about ITER: "(...) is considered fairly easy to build but extremely difficult to operate." If this is true, ITER is so failed. Wikipedia: "Construction of the ITER Tokamak complex started in 2013[6] and the building costs are now over US$14 billion as of June 2015, some 3 times the original figure.[7] The facility is expected to finish its construction phase in 2019 and will start commissioning the reactor that same year and initiate plasma experiments in 2020". It's so easy to build, that is already 3 times more expensive. And it will be so hard to operate, that it will never work.
- Retric 11y ago
  "35 countries" That's the real issue, they could be building a toaster and it would be 3x over budget. PS: The ITER project was formally agreed to and funded in 2006 with a cost estimate of €10 billion ($12.8 billion) projecting the start of construction in 2008 and completion a decade later So, it's not really massively over budget yet, they just decided to build something else.
  - lispm 11y ago
    Well, the Wendelstein 7X experiment is mostly funded by Germany as an investment into the east/north German science infrastructure. That makes it easier to coordinate, but it's hard to finance such a project. A project, which will have commercial use decades away, and whose commercialization would need much larger funding... We have actually enough financing needs in the German energy landscape currently: dismantling the nuclear power legacy, find a safe storage for radioactive materials and the research and development of the renewable energy landscape - which is in the hundreds of billions of Euros over the next 35 years.
- felipellrocha 11y ago
  Just because it's difficult to operate, that doesn't mean it's impossible.
davidiach 11y ago
Is fusion something we could expect to become a real source of energy in say the next 15-20 years? I assume just building a fusion reactor will take more than a decade.
- vorotato 11y ago
  from the article “It’s a very clean source of power, the cleanest you could possibly wish for. We’re not doing this for us but for our children and grandchildren.”
- norea-armozel 11y ago
  Considering who's putting money into ignition research and alternative modes of fusion (General Fusion vs Tri-Alpha Energy for example) I'd say we should have at least one successful ignition experiment on or before 2020. I would honestly be shocked if nothing of note in that regard didn't happen by 2030 though.
- creshal 11y ago
  Wendelstein and ITER are supposed to verify whether it's possible to generate net power… with improved designs. So, assuming Wendelstein works as hoped, we will, in a few years, know whether we can start planning an actual fusion power plant (as opposed to a net-negative research reactor). Then we will need to actual design and build one. If we're lucky, we'll see the first pilot plants in 15-20 years. So, we're on the same level of "fusion practicability" as in 1960.
- adrianN 11y ago
  Building a nuclear power plant, something we already know how to do inside and out, takes 5-7 years. Barring miraculous breakthroughs in non-magnetic confinement technology, the chances for fusion power on the grid are pretty close to zero.
- rubidium 11y ago
  The running joke is that it's always been 15-20 years away. Since 1960.
michielr 11y ago
Livestream is live here: http://www.mpg.de/9915939/wendelstein7x http://www.mpg.de/9915939/wendelstein7x
antirez 11y ago
"Merkel, who is a doctor of physics, is expected at Wednesday’s event, which is happening in her constituency." A nation lead by a leader that is both a women and a scientist. I would say this is progress regardless of the experiment outcome.
- rb2k_ 11y ago
  She's also the daughter of a priest, so we basically have all bases covered :)
  - jawilson2 11y ago
    "A woman, a priest, a physicist, and chancellor walk into a bar..."
  - StavrosK 11y ago
    Is it really such a big deal there? I don't think people would be very surprised that a woman can be chancellor.
- lispm 11y ago
  Note that this fusion experiment is also very 'political'. Without reunification and the wish to promote science in the former East Germany, this experiment would a) never have been funded and b) it would have be cancelled because of steep cost increases and delays. The fusion device was built in North/East Germany, whereas the prior research was done in South Germany. Thus it is fitting that Chancellor Merkel attends this event. It's a great experiment and a wonderful achievement, but probably we had different priorities and even different scientific priorities - especially considering the large amount of money invested. There are lots of competing science areas which lack this funding.
- cubano 11y ago
  I would think being highly competent and good at building political consensus that promoted the good for the people would be the most important things, no matter what gender or profession, no?
sdgsfsfgfg 11y ago
Look at the design of this thing. http://static-content.springer.com/image/chp%3A10.1007%2F978-1-4613-0369-5_76/MediaObjects/978-1-4613-0369-5_76_Fig1_HTML.jpg http://static-content.springer.com/image/chp%3A10.1007%2F978... Beautiful
dragonbonheur 11y ago
If only that kind of money and research was put into properly exploiting the nice big yellow fusion reactor that's already in the sky... No need to worry about plasma abrasion of Tokamak walls and magnetic confinement if that happened.
- lhopki01 11y ago
  Germany has spent the most on solar subsidies of any country. Don't make this an exclusive situation. They can do both.
  - dragonbonheur 11y ago
    Solar panels aren't the only way.
    - the8472 11y ago
      Solar panels aren't the only renewable subsidized in germany.
    - lhopki01 11y ago
      I was making the point that they are exploiting the great big fusion reactor in the sky as well. More than other countries.
- Shivetya 11y ago
  I think the idea here is to have continuous and reliable base line power that is clean. While solar does present a lot of opportunities it is highly sensitive to weather, in not changes in the Earth's orientation seasonally. Throw in we have lots of established plants with steam generators a new source of steam would integrate nicely into complex systems we already understand.
- badsock 11y ago
  To echo one of Shivetya's points: the dominate renewables of solar and wind both need some sort of compliment that can fill in the temporary gaps when either demand is high or supply is low. Hydroelectric is great, but there's not enough of it. We'll see how batteries do, but it's nice to have more than one horse in the race.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
rorflcopter 11y ago
That headline sounds like something from the beginning of a superhero movie

100 points by miiiiiike 11y ago

The Guardian about ITER: "(...) is considered fairly easy to build but extremely difficult to operate." If this is true, ITER is so failed. Wikipedia: "Construction of the ITER Tokamak complex started in 2013[6] and the building costs are now over US$14 billion as of June 2015, some 3 times the original figure.[7] The facility is expected to finish its construction phase in 2019 and will start commissioning the reactor that same year and initiate plasma experiments in 2020". It's so easy to build, that is already 3 times more expensive. And it will be so hard to operate, that it will never work.

Retric 11y ago
"35 countries" That's the real issue, they could be building a toaster and it would be 3x over budget. PS: The ITER project was formally agreed to and funded in 2006 with a cost estimate of €10 billion ($12.8 billion) projecting the start of construction in 2008 and completion a decade later So, it's not really massively over budget yet, they just decided to build something else.
- lispm 11y ago
  Well, the Wendelstein 7X experiment is mostly funded by Germany as an investment into the east/north German science infrastructure. That makes it easier to coordinate, but it's hard to finance such a project. A project, which will have commercial use decades away, and whose commercialization would need much larger funding... We have actually enough financing needs in the German energy landscape currently: dismantling the nuclear power legacy, find a safe storage for radioactive materials and the research and development of the renewable energy landscape - which is in the hundreds of billions of Euros over the next 35 years.
felipellrocha 11y ago
Just because it's difficult to operate, that doesn't mean it's impossible.

davidiach 11y ago

Is fusion something we could expect to become a real source of energy in say the next 15-20 years? I assume just building a fusion reactor will take more than a decade.

vorotato 11y ago
from the article “It’s a very clean source of power, the cleanest you could possibly wish for. We’re not doing this for us but for our children and grandchildren.”
norea-armozel 11y ago
Considering who's putting money into ignition research and alternative modes of fusion (General Fusion vs Tri-Alpha Energy for example) I'd say we should have at least one successful ignition experiment on or before 2020. I would honestly be shocked if nothing of note in that regard didn't happen by 2030 though.
creshal 11y ago
Wendelstein and ITER are supposed to verify whether it's possible to generate net power… with improved designs. So, assuming Wendelstein works as hoped, we will, in a few years, know whether we can start planning an actual fusion power plant (as opposed to a net-negative research reactor). Then we will need to actual design and build one. If we're lucky, we'll see the first pilot plants in 15-20 years. So, we're on the same level of "fusion practicability" as in 1960.
adrianN 11y ago
Building a nuclear power plant, something we already know how to do inside and out, takes 5-7 years. Barring miraculous breakthroughs in non-magnetic confinement technology, the chances for fusion power on the grid are pretty close to zero.
rubidium 11y ago
The running joke is that it's always been 15-20 years away. Since 1960.

michielr 11y ago

Livestream is live here: http://www.mpg.de/9915939/wendelstein7x http://www.mpg.de/9915939/wendelstein7x

antirez 11y ago

"Merkel, who is a doctor of physics, is expected at Wednesday’s event, which is happening in her constituency." A nation lead by a leader that is both a women and a scientist. I would say this is progress regardless of the experiment outcome.

rb2k_ 11y ago
She's also the daughter of a priest, so we basically have all bases covered :)
- jawilson2 11y ago
  "A woman, a priest, a physicist, and chancellor walk into a bar..."
- StavrosK 11y ago
  Is it really such a big deal there? I don't think people would be very surprised that a woman can be chancellor.
lispm 11y ago
Note that this fusion experiment is also very 'political'. Without reunification and the wish to promote science in the former East Germany, this experiment would a) never have been funded and b) it would have be cancelled because of steep cost increases and delays. The fusion device was built in North/East Germany, whereas the prior research was done in South Germany. Thus it is fitting that Chancellor Merkel attends this event. It's a great experiment and a wonderful achievement, but probably we had different priorities and even different scientific priorities - especially considering the large amount of money invested. There are lots of competing science areas which lack this funding.
cubano 11y ago
I would think being highly competent and good at building political consensus that promoted the good for the people would be the most important things, no matter what gender or profession, no?

sdgsfsfgfg 11y ago

Look at the design of this thing. http://static-content.springer.com/image/chp%3A10.1007%2F978-1-4613-0369-5_76/MediaObjects/978-1-4613-0369-5_76_Fig1_HTML.jpg http://static-content.springer.com/image/chp%3A10.1007%2F978... Beautiful

dragonbonheur 11y ago

If only that kind of money and research was put into properly exploiting the nice big yellow fusion reactor that's already in the sky... No need to worry about plasma abrasion of Tokamak walls and magnetic confinement if that happened.

lhopki01 11y ago
Germany has spent the most on solar subsidies of any country. Don't make this an exclusive situation. They can do both.
- dragonbonheur 11y ago
  Solar panels aren't the only way.
  - the8472 11y ago
    Solar panels aren't the only renewable subsidized in germany.
  - lhopki01 11y ago
    I was making the point that they are exploiting the great big fusion reactor in the sky as well. More than other countries.
Shivetya 11y ago
I think the idea here is to have continuous and reliable base line power that is clean. While solar does present a lot of opportunities it is highly sensitive to weather, in not changes in the Earth's orientation seasonally. Throw in we have lots of established plants with steam generators a new source of steam would integrate nicely into complex systems we already understand.
badsock 11y ago
To echo one of Shivetya's points: the dominate renewables of solar and wind both need some sort of compliment that can fill in the temporary gaps when either demand is high or supply is low. Hydroelectric is great, but there's not enough of it. We'll see how batteries do, but it's nice to have more than one horse in the race.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

rorflcopter 11y ago

That headline sounds like something from the beginning of a superhero movie