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Well, that sounds nice in the abstract, but I can relax when I notice that I'm worked up on something. I understand the philosophical point you're making, but

Well, that sounds nice in the abstract, but I can relax when I notice that I'm worked up on something. I understand the philosophical point you're making, but it's an abstract, philosophical, existential stress that you're talking about, not everyday stress. Simply the non-enlightened state of mind, caring about distinctions etc. And then you go on explaining how you can't rationalize yourself out of that state-of-mind. That's true. When you want to relax you step back. You don't "engineer disturbances" or whatever. You step back and calm down. You breathe, you shake off the ballast etc. > So, in order to fully relax, one has to engineer disturbances that are less stressful than the stress you are trying to eliminate, and to modify your approach as you go. It also gets complicated because there are feedback loops in the system. Manipulating one thing, brings up another thing to deal with etc... I think you're trapping yourself in your own traps. Relaxation isn't an intellectual thing like that. You don't need to think through all the small-scale biology of muscle contractions to walk, either. It depends of course what kind of "relax" we are talking about. Do you mean getting rid of anxiety? Where you can worry about the fact that you worry? Sure those are tougher nuts to solve just mentally. You often need external things for that, like exercise, therapy, medication etc. But I often feel worked up on some issue to the point of faster heartbeat etc, and then I feel like "hey, let's not get worked up so much" and then my heart slows down again. People are often advised to "count to 10" in such cases. This monotony looks a bit like meditation-chants. Perhaps it's a kind of mini-meditation, I don't know. One thing I know is that trying to engineer it, thinking with that usual nerdish attitude doesn't help (at least me). Relaxation is an action, it's not a logical mathematical derivation.

gerbilly 11y ago
>I understand the philosophical point you're making, but it's an abstract, philosophical, existential stress that you're talking about, not everyday stress. Sorry, maybe I was trying to be too clever. Basically I agree with you. Breathing and counting to ten are perfectly fine ways of dispelling stress. Breathing deeply counteracts the sympathetic response to stress, counting is a way of waiting it out, allowing the mental loops that can sustain a stressful train of thought to dissolve. I still maintain though that "You can't try to relax". Notice that the techniques you describe don't consist of willing yourself to "relax" they are other means that break a physiological or cognitive state that then allows the relaxation to re-establish itself, one physical the other cognitive.
- bonoboTP 11y ago
  I'd argue that most stuff that we do is like this. For example you can't try to be productive either. You can shape your environment, remove distractions, go for a walk etc., but in the moment there is no way to forcibly produce good ideas to solve problems (say design problems in engineering etc.). You also can't try to learn (except for rote learning and developing a hate for the subject matter in parallel). Or maybe not. Maybe you can do self-suggestion. I certainly know people who can easily dig themselves into hole of fury, getting angry at someone (not present), making assumptions, getting more angry at them, imagining further nastiness about that person etc. If you can make yourself more frustrated, perhaps you can also make yourself less frustrated. Whatever. I think that worrying and analyzing this very topic (whether you can "try to X") too extensively is not terribly useful either. It's a bit like ivory tower programmers who read all sorts of Agile books, Clean Code, The Mythical Man-Month etc. without actually spending lots of time writing code. One can do lots of philosophical back and forth based on principles, but in the end it comes down to actions. If you think you can't try to relax, you probably also won't be able to. Or maybe yes. There are limitations to what can happen in the brain, but there is too much self-referencing going on when talking about chainging one's own conscious state. It usually leads into a lot of bunk, new age whatever magic stuff. Anyways, one way to get rid of frustration is to not worry about ways to get rid of frustration. Including this one. You have to do it quick enough so that your consciousness doesn't jump in and say "but I can't try to follow this advice either". You have to let the advice act on you. "But I can't try to let anything" :D But then a point comes when you notice that it just happened. The best summary is to "let things be", while knowing that letting or not letting it is bullshit, there are no permissions involved in this type of thing anyway. (Seems like I couldn't resist to spill out some text like this. I think there is some value in thinking about this, but not too much and definitely not if done too deeply and seriously.)
  - gerbilly 11y ago
    To relax is an act of letting be, just as you say. But to get at the subtler levels of stress, you need a plan. The strategies that work on the everyday forms of stress become a disturbance when trying to eliminate the subtler levels of stress. We agree I think, we are just talking about different levels of stress. Theorizing isn't the goal. There are a lot of "theory buddhists" who get really into the esoteric philosophy in the scriptures. I think they are wasting their time. Stress reduction is something you practice, the theory is only there for when you encounter unfamiliar situations and aren't sure how to proceed. Of course this whole thread shows how I don't always remember to follow my own advice.

gerbilly 11y ago

>I understand the philosophical point you're making, but it's an abstract, philosophical, existential stress that you're talking about, not everyday stress. Sorry, maybe I was trying to be too clever. Basically I agree with you. Breathing and counting to ten are perfectly fine ways of dispelling stress. Breathing deeply counteracts the sympathetic response to stress, counting is a way of waiting it out, allowing the mental loops that can sustain a stressful train of thought to dissolve. I still maintain though that "You can't try to relax". Notice that the techniques you describe don't consist of willing yourself to "relax" they are other means that break a physiological or cognitive state that then allows the relaxation to re-establish itself, one physical the other cognitive.

bonoboTP 11y ago
I'd argue that most stuff that we do is like this. For example you can't try to be productive either. You can shape your environment, remove distractions, go for a walk etc., but in the moment there is no way to forcibly produce good ideas to solve problems (say design problems in engineering etc.). You also can't try to learn (except for rote learning and developing a hate for the subject matter in parallel). Or maybe not. Maybe you can do self-suggestion. I certainly know people who can easily dig themselves into hole of fury, getting angry at someone (not present), making assumptions, getting more angry at them, imagining further nastiness about that person etc. If you can make yourself more frustrated, perhaps you can also make yourself less frustrated. Whatever. I think that worrying and analyzing this very topic (whether you can "try to X") too extensively is not terribly useful either. It's a bit like ivory tower programmers who read all sorts of Agile books, Clean Code, The Mythical Man-Month etc. without actually spending lots of time writing code. One can do lots of philosophical back and forth based on principles, but in the end it comes down to actions. If you think you can't try to relax, you probably also won't be able to. Or maybe yes. There are limitations to what can happen in the brain, but there is too much self-referencing going on when talking about chainging one's own conscious state. It usually leads into a lot of bunk, new age whatever magic stuff. Anyways, one way to get rid of frustration is to not worry about ways to get rid of frustration. Including this one. You have to do it quick enough so that your consciousness doesn't jump in and say "but I can't try to follow this advice either". You have to let the advice act on you. "But I can't try to let anything" :D But then a point comes when you notice that it just happened. The best summary is to "let things be", while knowing that letting or not letting it is bullshit, there are no permissions involved in this type of thing anyway. (Seems like I couldn't resist to spill out some text like this. I think there is some value in thinking about this, but not too much and definitely not if done too deeply and seriously.)
- gerbilly 11y ago
  To relax is an act of letting be, just as you say. But to get at the subtler levels of stress, you need a plan. The strategies that work on the everyday forms of stress become a disturbance when trying to eliminate the subtler levels of stress. We agree I think, we are just talking about different levels of stress. Theorizing isn't the goal. There are a lot of "theory buddhists" who get really into the esoteric philosophy in the scriptures. I think they are wasting their time. Stress reduction is something you practice, the theory is only there for when you encounter unfamiliar situations and aren't sure how to proceed. Of course this whole thread shows how I don't always remember to follow my own advice.