6 ms·
Wow if that's true, this is not the way to reduce the gender gap.
by MollyR 11y ago
Wow if that's true, this is not the way to reduce the gender gap.
- tajen 11y agoI'm very happy that a lawsuit on male discrimination is happening. Being a male programmer, I have seen many females around me being more promoted than men, in my 3 companies. I cannot determine whether there is actually a discrimination happening, but I can tell that "statistics don't match my experience". So a lawsuit is one way of determining the "truth, according to the law". And on the other hand, there starts to be gender equality if both genders sue equally often for discrimination. It's ironic, but it's positive.
- JoeAltmaier 11y agoIt could simply be, that your company recognizes talent wherever it finds it. And women flock there because they can succeed there. That would just make it, competition. As society changes, there will be many apparent imbalances. To tell if something is wrong, we cannot just look at statistics. There must be a better test for 'inequality'.
- tajen 11y agoBecause women are more talentful? If something irritates me, it's newspapers full of articles saying that women are better at work than men, women lecturing men on being being accordingly stupid, and no quality attributed to men about work or private life, apart from being stronger (yay, stronger, a great brain-dead prejudice). I included your lecturing in my original comment, it's an humiliation that you could think I oversaw such aspects.
- JoeAltmaier 11y agoNobody said that. Reading the comment again, we see it said "Women flock there because they can succeed there." There would then be many more talented women there than average.
- tehwebguy 11y agoWhat newspapers are you reading?
- tajen 11y agoI won't answer your question because you just need to google "Why women are better for management" and you'll find many articles; And many major newspaper ran stories about the advantage of being a woman and manager (at least for Marissa Mayer). Women are usually granted with qualities like being able to do two things at the same time (which is good for a management position), being talkative (good for management), having empathy when necessary (good for management), being more organized... I honestly can't list out of my mind qualities which are generally attributed to men, apart from being sharks. Please upgrade my ego if you can list any ;)
- ergothus 11y agoJust as a note, as I know nothing about your or your situation, but reacting angrily will NOT help any impressions you are giving. Frankly, when someone tells me they work in a tech place where women are successful, I'm jealous. So if you want to point out that there is some hostile bias at work and not just the lack of hostile environments that drive women away from so many places, you need to prove that. Coming across as a woman-hating man does not accomplish this (Again, I don't know you, I'm only saying the impression you are giving).
- oh_sigh 11y ago> Frankly, when someone tells me they work in a tech place where women are successful, I'm jealous. I think the key there is "where women are successful *at mens expense" (feel free to swap the genders as well).
- pc86 11y agoWell promotions are by definition zero sum. Promotion of any individual is at the expense of every other qualified individual who wanted the job.
- oh_sigh 11y agoYou're assuming there is a fixed pie. What if the company is growing?
- pc86 11y agoIt's still zero sum for the current employees. Only the following scenarios are possible whether a company is growing or not: 1. Nobody gets the promotion 2. Somebody outside the company gets the promotion 3. Somebody inside the company who isn't me gets the promotion 4. I get the promotion With the exception of #1, I only get the promotion at the expense of my coworkers (who want and are qualified for the job). Edit: Put a better way, it is zero sum because you and your coworkers cannot equally share in the benefits of a promotion.
- 11y ago
- ashwinaj 11y agoThis. While I agree that generally in SV there is some misogyny, that doesn't mean any injustice against males should be seen as a red herring.
- knughit 11y agoYour quickness to retaliate in anger, instead of correcting your mathematical oversight, undermines your reader's confidence in your ability to judge the merits of your coworkers.
- cameron111 11y agoI agree that many companies are discriminating against men in hiring and promotions, and that many managers are much more lenient toward women than men. I, too, am seeing contradictions of the statistics in many tech workplaces (e.g. 4:1 CS graduation rate, or 99:1 OSS contribution rate, but 2:1 and 1:1 employment rates). I'm confident that the cause of this discrimination is companies' very rational fear of sex discrimination lawsuits (which only women can successfully wage), and the resulting public-relations shitstorm that results from that (but only when a woman has something to complain about). Anyone following the tech industry's news cycle over the past five years is familiar with this threat. However, I object to your unease here at newspapers suggesting that there are differences between genders. There are obviously differences between genders -- biological and psychological. The problem is that we have a culture that requires companies to take precautions (e.g. hiring less-abled women over better-abled men to meet lawyer-recommended quotas) to protect their interests; a culture that suppresses meaningful exploration of the differences between men and women (e.g. you're only allowed to mention possible advantages that women have) and how to handle that. Our culture is mandating equality in all regards, at all costs, and its enforcers will stop at nothing until that's achieved. The reality is that, on average, certain demographics have innate advantages over others in a capitalist system. Gender can't go away, so the only way to achieve equality in the face of gender differences is to wage cultural-level discrimination against the advantaged. Our culture needs to change; it's standing in the way of humanity reaching its greatest potential. I'm not sure how much further we can go while slitting our wrists at the altar of equality. (new account because I would like to remain employed)
- rimantas 11y ago> To tell if something is wrong, we cannot just look at > statistics. So IT field can be dominated by white males without anything being wrong. Which I am OK with.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- justaman 11y agoEarly childhood education is dominated by women. Which I am OK with.
- pcurve 11y agoI've seen attempts to promote females to IT leadership positions, usually to high enough levels where they don't have to know code or have strong technical skills. It appears to be a way to balance out field dominated by male. Definitely not openly discussed issue, but it's hard to ignore numbers sometimes.
- calibraxis 11y agoThe gender bias HN people see — bias against men! You go into a tech workplace all you see is black/latina women... I started wearing makeup and dresses to job interviews. Tanning salon beforehand. The interviewers perk up and ask if I identify as a woman. I sob and admit I'm cismale — but I read everything on Hacker News so I'm probably very qualified! I'm entitled to your company employing me!! They lower their heads and thank me for my time.
- dang 11y agoPlease don't do this here.
- yuhong 11y agoI dislike anti-discrimination laws in general. I think a good compromise would be to limit to manual labor jobs and the like which the laws was originally designed for.