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Ask YC: Quitting Etiquette

5 points by bkrausz 19y ago

I accepted an offer for a summer internship in Silicon Valley several months ago (I received 2 offers very early). I signed and sent in the standard at-will employment contract, all that fun stuff. Now, an idea/product has surfaced/been developed that I feel has huge potential and would like to pursue through YC. I don't, however, want to burn bridges at this company (which is pretty prominent in Silicon Valley). How bad of a career move would it be, assuming I get accepted at YC, to turn down this company a month before my internship to accept a YC offer? Is this as poor a business practice as I think it is? On a different but related note, while I appreciate that the business we are in moves quickly, I feel very strongly that the whole application process is way to late in the game, specifically because most internship offers come long before April 2. While I know that YC is not an internship, I think there is significant overlap in the type of people who get Silicon Valley internships and the type who apply to YC. I think the choice between accepting an internship and applying to YC with no guarantee of getting accepted is avoidable by making the process slightly earlier. I'm mostly saying this to see how people feel on the topic, partially to satisfy my own curiosity but also to allow PG and the crew to see if they are missing out on a lot of potential founders because of this.

bayareaguy 19y ago
Some things you should probably figure out for yourself: - What's stopping you from pursuing your idea now? - Will you continue to pursue it if turned down at YC? - Can taking the internship help you pursue your idea later (e.g by making connections)? - How well connected are people at the group where you would be an intern? - How much competition was there in the internship program? If you decide not to go will the company have a reasonable chance to get another good candidate? Declining an offer is not quite the same as quitting, but you should still act professionally. Imagine being in the position of the company and think about how someone could decline your offer in a way that wouldn't upset you. If you do decline, try to find a way to occasionally stay in touch with the people you would have worked with if they are the kind of people you would want to know in the future.
- bkrausz 19y ago
  Great questions! They may have been rhetorical but I have already considered them, so I figured a reply is warranted: I do intend to pursue my idea, but I feel the connections and, more importantly, the full-time workload of doing it through YC would be very beneficial (there's a lot to be said for coding all day and then coming home to code all night...I think we can all agree that 8 hours of coding, especially if it isn't interesting, can be pretty draining). I've heard amazing things about the YC connections, and while I'm sure the company in question does have very good connections, I feel they probably pale in comparison to YC. I will be working on the idea either way, but I am a strong believer in the idea that one is much more likely to succeed if there is the pressure of it being your primary focus and goal (I believe PG said this in an essay, though I don't recall which one), thus my need to decide between YC and moonlighting.
  - bayareaguy 19y ago
    One semi-rhetorical question I forgot before: which of your choices has the greater opportunity cost? Is your idea something that offers significant first-mover advantage, or is it something that you'll still have a good market for even if other companies are already doing it by the time you ramp up?
icky 19y ago
IANAL, and this is NOT legal advice, but: Since you'll be in California, you can take advantage of California Labor Code Section 2870-2872 ( http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/lab/2870-2872.html http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/lab/2870-2872.html ), and do your startup (that doesn't relate to the internship-company's business, nor result from the work you do for the company) on your "own time without using the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities, or trade secret information". Then, you'll get your pay from the summer internship (if they're not paying you, GTFO; you'd essentially be paying SV rents for the "privilege" of working for them!), and have a head-start for the winter round. You'll also have gotten more done self-fundedly, which will help you stretch any stipend you might get from YC.
pistoriusp 19y ago
I try and remember that you don't owe an employer anything besides your word. You work, they pay. Besides that you're free to make up your own mind about your life. If you want to do it, then do it. Be honest and open with your former employer... If you're good enough then they'll hire you again if that's what you want later down the line. If they don't and you're good enough then you'll always be able to find another job.
aston 19y ago
Assuming you're pretty sure you're going to do the YC thing either way, the right answer is: renege on the summer offer. It's at-will employment, and your will is not to work there. Apologize nicely, and tell them you hope for future opportunities at their company. Internships are just expensive recruiting anyway.
- arashf 19y ago
  I'd never do that.
  - aston 19y ago
    Yeah, but change out "internship" for "full-time position," and it's another story entirely.
iamelgringo 19y ago
Do you live in the Valley, or would you be moving here for the summer to do your internship? Can you afford to not work and not take the internship this summer? If you can, why not pursue the idea anyway. If you get in to YC, great. If not, keep working on the startup and see where it takes you. Why are you taking an internship? One of the main reasons to take an internship is to get job experience, and I'd say that starting your own business is pretty good resume-able experience. The vibe that I'm getting in the Valley right now, is that if you want a job, and you have decent skills, you shouldn't have too hard a problem getting it. It's an employee's job market right now. So, I wouldn't worry about screwing over your long term job prospects too much. Another reason to take the internship is to get contacts. But, the kind of contacts that you'd make as an intern probably aren't going to be all that great. You're better off moving to Silicon Valley, starting your own business and doing the Meetup/conference things. Networking in Silicon Valley is pretty easy to do, and contacts come pretty easy. It's really a small town. Another reason to take the internship is the pay. Which, is usually pretty low. If you're hard up for cash, I'd say that you're better off taking a coding job for the summer. From what you've said, though it doesn't sound like that's a big issue for you right now. And, if you're worried about stepping on the companies toes--don't. Sending them a polite, professional letter explaining that you've decided to pursue other opportunities, should suffice. If they throw a fit or hold a grudge, you really didn't want to work for them anyway.
juanpablo 19y ago
If you REALLY think your idea/product has huge potential why are you worried about your "career"? Your startup IT IS your career!
wallflower 19y ago
YC sounds like a fantastic opportunity. I would pour-your-heart into the application and if you do get the offer - write a hand-written letter (no email) and FedEx it to your internship contact. In the letter, tell your internship liason exactly what you told us - explain your feelings for why you regret turning them down (tell them how you feel, don't use logic). people buy on emotion and rationalize with logic (even the most logical people). Carpe diem!...
NoBSWebDesign 19y ago
I wouldn't let something like not wanting to disappoint keep you from pursuing an opportunity that could change your life (I think someone already mentioned opportunity cost). That being said, if you know anyone else you know and trust, and whom you would vouch for, given the skills required for the internship and who would take the internship, then I'd recommend him to the employer if they still need someone to fill the position. This is a practice I learned from being in a band. Booking agents hate when you cancel, but love you for it if you provide another band to play in your stead. Granted, I know this is much easier to do with a band than with an internship.

5 points by bkrausz 19y ago

bayareaguy 19y ago

Some things you should probably figure out for yourself: - What's stopping you from pursuing your idea now? - Will you continue to pursue it if turned down at YC? - Can taking the internship help you pursue your idea later (e.g by making connections)? - How well connected are people at the group where you would be an intern? - How much competition was there in the internship program? If you decide not to go will the company have a reasonable chance to get another good candidate? Declining an offer is not quite the same as quitting, but you should still act professionally. Imagine being in the position of the company and think about how someone could decline your offer in a way that wouldn't upset you. If you do decline, try to find a way to occasionally stay in touch with the people you would have worked with if they are the kind of people you would want to know in the future.

bkrausz 19y ago
Great questions! They may have been rhetorical but I have already considered them, so I figured a reply is warranted: I do intend to pursue my idea, but I feel the connections and, more importantly, the full-time workload of doing it through YC would be very beneficial (there's a lot to be said for coding all day and then coming home to code all night...I think we can all agree that 8 hours of coding, especially if it isn't interesting, can be pretty draining). I've heard amazing things about the YC connections, and while I'm sure the company in question does have very good connections, I feel they probably pale in comparison to YC. I will be working on the idea either way, but I am a strong believer in the idea that one is much more likely to succeed if there is the pressure of it being your primary focus and goal (I believe PG said this in an essay, though I don't recall which one), thus my need to decide between YC and moonlighting.
- bayareaguy 19y ago
  One semi-rhetorical question I forgot before: which of your choices has the greater opportunity cost? Is your idea something that offers significant first-mover advantage, or is it something that you'll still have a good market for even if other companies are already doing it by the time you ramp up?

icky 19y ago

IANAL, and this is NOT legal advice, but: Since you'll be in California, you can take advantage of California Labor Code Section 2870-2872 ( http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/lab/2870-2872.html http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/lab/2870-2872.html ), and do your startup (that doesn't relate to the internship-company's business, nor result from the work you do for the company) on your "own time without using the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities, or trade secret information". Then, you'll get your pay from the summer internship (if they're not paying you, GTFO; you'd essentially be paying SV rents for the "privilege" of working for them!), and have a head-start for the winter round. You'll also have gotten more done self-fundedly, which will help you stretch any stipend you might get from YC.

pistoriusp 19y ago

I try and remember that you don't owe an employer anything besides your word. You work, they pay. Besides that you're free to make up your own mind about your life. If you want to do it, then do it. Be honest and open with your former employer... If you're good enough then they'll hire you again if that's what you want later down the line. If they don't and you're good enough then you'll always be able to find another job.

aston 19y ago

Assuming you're pretty sure you're going to do the YC thing either way, the right answer is: renege on the summer offer. It's at-will employment, and your will is not to work there. Apologize nicely, and tell them you hope for future opportunities at their company. Internships are just expensive recruiting anyway.

arashf 19y ago
I'd never do that.
- aston 19y ago
  Yeah, but change out "internship" for "full-time position," and it's another story entirely.

iamelgringo 19y ago

Do you live in the Valley, or would you be moving here for the summer to do your internship? Can you afford to not work and not take the internship this summer? If you can, why not pursue the idea anyway. If you get in to YC, great. If not, keep working on the startup and see where it takes you. Why are you taking an internship? One of the main reasons to take an internship is to get job experience, and I'd say that starting your own business is pretty good resume-able experience. The vibe that I'm getting in the Valley right now, is that if you want a job, and you have decent skills, you shouldn't have too hard a problem getting it. It's an employee's job market right now. So, I wouldn't worry about screwing over your long term job prospects too much. Another reason to take the internship is to get contacts. But, the kind of contacts that you'd make as an intern probably aren't going to be all that great. You're better off moving to Silicon Valley, starting your own business and doing the Meetup/conference things. Networking in Silicon Valley is pretty easy to do, and contacts come pretty easy. It's really a small town. Another reason to take the internship is the pay. Which, is usually pretty low. If you're hard up for cash, I'd say that you're better off taking a coding job for the summer. From what you've said, though it doesn't sound like that's a big issue for you right now. And, if you're worried about stepping on the companies toes--don't. Sending them a polite, professional letter explaining that you've decided to pursue other opportunities, should suffice. If they throw a fit or hold a grudge, you really didn't want to work for them anyway.

juanpablo 19y ago

If you REALLY think your idea/product has huge potential why are you worried about your "career"? Your startup IT IS your career!

wallflower 19y ago

YC sounds like a fantastic opportunity. I would pour-your-heart into the application and if you do get the offer - write a hand-written letter (no email) and FedEx it to your internship contact. In the letter, tell your internship liason exactly what you told us - explain your feelings for why you regret turning them down (tell them how you feel, don't use logic). people buy on emotion and rationalize with logic (even the most logical people). Carpe diem!...

NoBSWebDesign 19y ago

I wouldn't let something like not wanting to disappoint keep you from pursuing an opportunity that could change your life (I think someone already mentioned opportunity cost). That being said, if you know anyone else you know and trust, and whom you would vouch for, given the skills required for the internship and who would take the internship, then I'd recommend him to the employer if they still need someone to fill the position. This is a practice I learned from being in a band. Booking agents hate when you cancel, but love you for it if you provide another band to play in your stead. Granted, I know this is much easier to do with a band than with an internship.