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> They already witnessed PHP, PERL, Java Applets, Flash, the browser wars, and so on. It's frustrating that the situation hasn't improved. I thought by now the

> They already witnessed PHP, PERL, Java Applets, Flash, the browser wars, and so on. It's frustrating that the situation hasn't improved. I thought by now the web would have a clean, easy system to work with. At the rate things are going, I don't have much hope before 2030.

gedy 11y ago
Come'on it's way better than before. Before you could barely get the UI you wanted to work at all, now its mostly techy-debates about tooling and patterns.
- pekk 11y ago
  Whether it's better than before is extremely debatable. Cross-browser compatibility was a major issue, and it has improved some. But the problem in the 90s wasn't whether you could get the UI you wanted to work, and even if that was the problem, it still isn't solved. Actually, the consensus I remember from back then was that Javascript sucked. I guess the solution to that problem was to have more Javascript? We have actually gone backwards in terms of ideas like "semantic markup" and most websites are no longer fit for viewing in Lynx. Which also means accessibility has gotten worse. Bloat is worse than ever and privacy issues are worse than ever. Power over the internet is concentrated in the hands of huge corporations who run crummy walled gardens. At least in the 90s most internet users agreed that AOL's walled garden was a bad idea, but now everyone comes out of the woodwork to argue in favor of Facebook or the App Store. I'd say things are worse than before.
  - gedy 11y ago
    I'm coming from a "end-result"-driven opinion about making something that works. It was a huge hurdle just to do pretty much anything beyond display text documents, so that was my problem when building web apps. As to you your last point - yes true, but I think it's much worse with non-web technology and native apps!
    - colllectorof 11y ago
      > It was a huge hurdle just to do pretty much anything beyond display text documents Like what? The trend I see in practice is that most web applications are still 98% text documents with images, but a combination of modern design patterns and tooling makes generating those documents insanely complicated. Currently I'm watching a project to "modernize" a bunch of small websites. The amount of effort it takes to convert them to some "familiar" (Bootstrap-like) UI is cringe-worthy.
nommm-nommm 11y ago
The web is fantastic today compared to what it was when I started web development a decade ago.
- EvanPlaice 11y ago
  Amen. We can build powerful, stable applications for the web that work across all browsers and operating systems. It has never been easier to pass data around and tap into 3rd party services to compose platforms that weren't possible a decade ago. I'm hardly 'old' in IRL terms but I remember back before we had really good version control, commmunication, data synchronization, deployment, testing, etc... tools. The state of things nowadays is just nice. Just watch out for the hype landmines and life is good.

gedy 11y ago

Come'on it's way better than before. Before you could barely get the UI you wanted to work at all, now its mostly techy-debates about tooling and patterns.

pekk 11y ago
Whether it's better than before is extremely debatable. Cross-browser compatibility was a major issue, and it has improved some. But the problem in the 90s wasn't whether you could get the UI you wanted to work, and even if that was the problem, it still isn't solved. Actually, the consensus I remember from back then was that Javascript sucked. I guess the solution to that problem was to have more Javascript? We have actually gone backwards in terms of ideas like "semantic markup" and most websites are no longer fit for viewing in Lynx. Which also means accessibility has gotten worse. Bloat is worse than ever and privacy issues are worse than ever. Power over the internet is concentrated in the hands of huge corporations who run crummy walled gardens. At least in the 90s most internet users agreed that AOL's walled garden was a bad idea, but now everyone comes out of the woodwork to argue in favor of Facebook or the App Store. I'd say things are worse than before.
- gedy 11y ago
  I'm coming from a "end-result"-driven opinion about making something that works. It was a huge hurdle just to do pretty much anything beyond display text documents, so that was my problem when building web apps. As to you your last point - yes true, but I think it's much worse with non-web technology and native apps!
  - colllectorof 11y ago
    > It was a huge hurdle just to do pretty much anything beyond display text documents Like what? The trend I see in practice is that most web applications are still 98% text documents with images, but a combination of modern design patterns and tooling makes generating those documents insanely complicated. Currently I'm watching a project to "modernize" a bunch of small websites. The amount of effort it takes to convert them to some "familiar" (Bootstrap-like) UI is cringe-worthy.

nommm-nommm 11y ago

The web is fantastic today compared to what it was when I started web development a decade ago.

EvanPlaice 11y ago
Amen. We can build powerful, stable applications for the web that work across all browsers and operating systems. It has never been easier to pass data around and tap into 3rd party services to compose platforms that weren't possible a decade ago. I'm hardly 'old' in IRL terms but I remember back before we had really good version control, commmunication, data synchronization, deployment, testing, etc... tools. The state of things nowadays is just nice. Just watch out for the hype landmines and life is good.