5 ms·

While this is undeniably impressive and hopeful, it should be noted that these are short-term affects. The article mentions this: "So far, there is no evidence

by revscat 11y ago

While this is undeniably impressive and hopeful, it should be noted that these are short-term affects. The article mentions this: "So far, there is no evidence of addiction at the low dose in which infusions are delivered. Ketamine does, however, have one major limitation: Its relief is temporary. Clinical trials at NIMH have found that relapse usually occurs about a week after a single infusion." It then goes on to talk about possibly alleviating this with booster treatments. For me, even the possibility of there being temporary relief makes it something I would seriously consider pursuing, for two reasons. First, when my depression gets really acute it basically means that I simply am unable to leave the house. If I were free of that chain I strongly suspect/hope it would be easier to seek out -- and be consistently dedicated to -- treatments that were more long term: meditation, therapy, etc. Second, just the thought of being happy for a few moments. Well, the allure of that is likely obvious. Were the almost omnipresent internal dialog of "you suck, you stupid fuck, dumb faggot, stupid fucking nigger," etc. able to be minimized or eliminated, even if temporarily, it would make such a great difference in my life that I almost can't quite imagine it. Right now I escape it by playing video games. This is not exactly the most positive way to live, however.

chimeracoder 11y ago
> Its relief is temporary. Clinical trials at NIMH have found that relapse usually occurs about a week after a single infusion." It then goes on to talk about possibly alleviating this with booster treatments. I know some people will naturally object to this, but to be honest - assuming people don't build up a tolerance to the effects[0], what's wrong with that? People are accustomed to taking all sorts of drugs on a daily basis, from antidepressants to sleeping aids to coffee (caffeine!). If someone invented from scratch an antidepressant that could only be taken once a week, we'd be heralding it as a miracle drug. The main opposition to Ketamine is likely to be its history of recreational use ("Special K"). But that narrative - opposing medicine because of its potential psychoactive effects - is nothing new. [0] I don't mean a tolerance to Ketamine in general, but a tolerance to this anti-depressive effect
- arthur_pryor 11y ago
  if anything, for people who are trying to be functional, you'd want to gain tolerance to the recreational effects, but not the anti-depressant effects. tolerance to both seems more likely, but hopefully tolerance to the former outpaces the latter.
- rincebrain 11y ago
  The basic problem is that it requires IV infusion, not oral or nasal administration (trials of the latter have issues with consistent dosage, AIUI), and that requires trips to a doctor to do, weekly.
mbrock 11y ago
I have only been moderately depressed, and I have no experience with this particular treatment... but I have had experiences that for a few hours swept away my anxiety, poor self-image, and so on. Metaphorically, it's been like opening a window for someone who's been stuck in a basement. Even without extreme euphoria—just a simple sense of contentment, like nothing is very wrong—that's such a revelation. A big part of depression seems to be this incapacity to even imagine any kind of robust, non-fake happiness. In bad moments one can even get paranoid: like, why is everyone going around pretending like they're happy, when they obviously cannot be? I think it's like this with any persistent mood; your whole world view is altered. So however you find it, just a couple of hours of, say, having a conversation where you don't feel like the worst loser in the universe and the nadir of civilization, that just shows you something about life. "Oh... I... I am just a person like these other people... I don't have to radiate horror and disgust... I can just stretch my arms right now and feel my body as an animal with the right to live and enjoy... Huh... Hah! Hahaha!" And then the next morning maybe you feel like crap again, sure. But the understanding that these are just different mind states is so valuable. Like, for someone who really doesn't believe in anything except depression anymore, I totally understand suicide. So giving people the chance to feel something else, even just for an hour—if psychiatry can start to really do that, that's so wonderful.
- danharaj 11y ago
  > So however you find it, just a couple of hours of, say, having a conversation where you don't feel like the worst loser in the universe and the nadir of civilization, that just shows you something about life. It really would have been nice for me while i was a child. yes. i should have been given ketamine as a child. my depression was so bad for most of my life that i could count the days where i didn't feel depressed, didn't feel like a leper or a zombie going through the motions of life, and it protected itself: at some point i just stopped acting out my terrible feelings because it seemed like it only caused trouble with the adults and alienated me from my peers. that became a feedback loop that prevented me from expressing depressive sentiments for over a decade. if i could have been functional enough even for one week to clearly explain what was wrong to someone, maybe the structural defects in my life that caused my depression could have been ameliorated. but that's all hindsight. i want to live in a world where no child is left to wallow in their depression. i don't know what you've been through and (maybe still?) go through, but it sounds awfully similar to what i deal with. i wish you didn't have to.
_pmf_ 11y ago
> First, when my depression gets really acute it basically means that I simply am unable to leave the house. You also would not really want to leave the house on Ketamine.
- Igglyboo 11y ago
  They aren't prescribing recreational doses, he would be perfectly functional and experience no dissociation whatsoever, it's something the drug community has been talking about for a long time. Lookup "microdosing" if you're interested, a lot of people do it with dissociatives or psychedelics and the point of it is to a below threshold dosage and avoid the typical drug high.
  - rincebrain 11y ago
    You're still in an "altered state" for an hour or so after an IV infusion, according to several practices I've seen offering the service - not necessarily dissociative or hallucinating, but definitely "out of it".
    - Igglyboo 11y ago
      Ah, didn't realize they were doing IV infusion, if they made capsules or something with a time release mechanism they could probably avoid the "altered state".
- Sanddancer 11y ago
  This isn't while high on ketamine, this is about the week following, when your brain is still feeling the after effects in a positive way. Proper depression fucking sucks -- it's not just about feeling sad, you get to a place where your body aches, and even getting the motivation to go across the room to get meds seems almost more trouble than it works. Depression is not just feeling sad, there are a lot more symptoms involved, and if it means needing a day out of seven to not go outside, that's still a lot better than only being able to go outside one to two days in seven.
1024core 11y ago
> Clinical trials at NIMH have found that relapse usually occurs about a week after a single infusion." But if you read till the end, they say that Hartman has to get booster shots every 6 months or so: > These days, he says that his periods of remission between infusions often stretch to six months.
rubberstamp 11y ago
i was depressed for a very long time. wasn't enjoying life and picked up some bad habits along the way. But now am a lot better. I think what finally helped me out of depression was to hangout with friends a lot and living with friends which distracted me away from my negative thoughts and with I actively trying to control my thought flow, cut negative thoughts out n doing something like following upon on something interesting, researching the way world works etc. It was a huge improvement. It was hard to get rid of bad habits i picked up while depressed, including laziness. Improved a lot in last 8 months. Am not depressed anymore. Negative internal dialogues too are gone. It was like a thought virus, which i finally got rid off. I hope my experience will be of some help for you. I didn't try therapy or any medication.
wootoomoo 11y ago
I got Ketamine at a psychiatric clinic. It really did make me feel strangely relieved, and basically immediately. Reminded me somehow of vacation days when I was a child. The feeling starts fading away once they stop the drip, and it's back to normal after a couple of hours. Since they don't give out pills (not sure if war-on-drugs bullshit or actually dangerous), it's pointless. You're monitored for half an hour by a physician, and the drip gets done by an anesthetist, and if I remember correctly they insisted I be carted back to my room instead of walking. It's also only done on in-patients. So it was completely impractical as a treatment and had no long-lasting effect at all.

by revscat 11y ago

chimeracoder 11y ago

> Its relief is temporary. Clinical trials at NIMH have found that relapse usually occurs about a week after a single infusion." It then goes on to talk about possibly alleviating this with booster treatments. I know some people will naturally object to this, but to be honest - assuming people don't build up a tolerance to the effects[0], what's wrong with that? People are accustomed to taking all sorts of drugs on a daily basis, from antidepressants to sleeping aids to coffee (caffeine!). If someone invented from scratch an antidepressant that could only be taken once a week, we'd be heralding it as a miracle drug. The main opposition to Ketamine is likely to be its history of recreational use ("Special K"). But that narrative - opposing medicine because of its potential psychoactive effects - is nothing new. [0] I don't mean a tolerance to Ketamine in general, but a tolerance to this anti-depressive effect

arthur_pryor 11y ago
if anything, for people who are trying to be functional, you'd want to gain tolerance to the recreational effects, but not the anti-depressant effects. tolerance to both seems more likely, but hopefully tolerance to the former outpaces the latter.
rincebrain 11y ago
The basic problem is that it requires IV infusion, not oral or nasal administration (trials of the latter have issues with consistent dosage, AIUI), and that requires trips to a doctor to do, weekly.

mbrock 11y ago

I have only been moderately depressed, and I have no experience with this particular treatment... but I have had experiences that for a few hours swept away my anxiety, poor self-image, and so on. Metaphorically, it's been like opening a window for someone who's been stuck in a basement. Even without extreme euphoria—just a simple sense of contentment, like nothing is very wrong—that's such a revelation. A big part of depression seems to be this incapacity to even imagine any kind of robust, non-fake happiness. In bad moments one can even get paranoid: like, why is everyone going around pretending like they're happy, when they obviously cannot be? I think it's like this with any persistent mood; your whole world view is altered. So however you find it, just a couple of hours of, say, having a conversation where you don't feel like the worst loser in the universe and the nadir of civilization, that just shows you something about life. "Oh... I... I am just a person like these other people... I don't have to radiate horror and disgust... I can just stretch my arms right now and feel my body as an animal with the right to live and enjoy... Huh... Hah! Hahaha!" And then the next morning maybe you feel like crap again, sure. But the understanding that these are just different mind states is so valuable. Like, for someone who really doesn't believe in anything except depression anymore, I totally understand suicide. So giving people the chance to feel something else, even just for an hour—if psychiatry can start to really do that, that's so wonderful.

danharaj 11y ago
> So however you find it, just a couple of hours of, say, having a conversation where you don't feel like the worst loser in the universe and the nadir of civilization, that just shows you something about life. It really would have been nice for me while i was a child. yes. i should have been given ketamine as a child. my depression was so bad for most of my life that i could count the days where i didn't feel depressed, didn't feel like a leper or a zombie going through the motions of life, and it protected itself: at some point i just stopped acting out my terrible feelings because it seemed like it only caused trouble with the adults and alienated me from my peers. that became a feedback loop that prevented me from expressing depressive sentiments for over a decade. if i could have been functional enough even for one week to clearly explain what was wrong to someone, maybe the structural defects in my life that caused my depression could have been ameliorated. but that's all hindsight. i want to live in a world where no child is left to wallow in their depression. i don't know what you've been through and (maybe still?) go through, but it sounds awfully similar to what i deal with. i wish you didn't have to.

_pmf_ 11y ago

> First, when my depression gets really acute it basically means that I simply am unable to leave the house. You also would not really want to leave the house on Ketamine.

Igglyboo 11y ago
They aren't prescribing recreational doses, he would be perfectly functional and experience no dissociation whatsoever, it's something the drug community has been talking about for a long time. Lookup "microdosing" if you're interested, a lot of people do it with dissociatives or psychedelics and the point of it is to a below threshold dosage and avoid the typical drug high.
- rincebrain 11y ago
  You're still in an "altered state" for an hour or so after an IV infusion, according to several practices I've seen offering the service - not necessarily dissociative or hallucinating, but definitely "out of it".
  - Igglyboo 11y ago
    Ah, didn't realize they were doing IV infusion, if they made capsules or something with a time release mechanism they could probably avoid the "altered state".
Sanddancer 11y ago
This isn't while high on ketamine, this is about the week following, when your brain is still feeling the after effects in a positive way. Proper depression fucking sucks -- it's not just about feeling sad, you get to a place where your body aches, and even getting the motivation to go across the room to get meds seems almost more trouble than it works. Depression is not just feeling sad, there are a lot more symptoms involved, and if it means needing a day out of seven to not go outside, that's still a lot better than only being able to go outside one to two days in seven.

1024core 11y ago

> Clinical trials at NIMH have found that relapse usually occurs about a week after a single infusion." But if you read till the end, they say that Hartman has to get booster shots every 6 months or so: > These days, he says that his periods of remission between infusions often stretch to six months.

rubberstamp 11y ago

i was depressed for a very long time. wasn't enjoying life and picked up some bad habits along the way. But now am a lot better. I think what finally helped me out of depression was to hangout with friends a lot and living with friends which distracted me away from my negative thoughts and with I actively trying to control my thought flow, cut negative thoughts out n doing something like following upon on something interesting, researching the way world works etc. It was a huge improvement. It was hard to get rid of bad habits i picked up while depressed, including laziness. Improved a lot in last 8 months. Am not depressed anymore. Negative internal dialogues too are gone. It was like a thought virus, which i finally got rid off. I hope my experience will be of some help for you. I didn't try therapy or any medication.

wootoomoo 11y ago

I got Ketamine at a psychiatric clinic. It really did make me feel strangely relieved, and basically immediately. Reminded me somehow of vacation days when I was a child. The feeling starts fading away once they stop the drip, and it's back to normal after a couple of hours. Since they don't give out pills (not sure if war-on-drugs bullshit or actually dangerous), it's pointless. You're monitored for half an hour by a physician, and the drip gets done by an anesthetist, and if I remember correctly they insisted I be carted back to my room instead of walking. It's also only done on in-patients. So it was completely impractical as a treatment and had no long-lasting effect at all.