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"Count me in as someone who, given the support of basic income, can and will live frugally and give my working self 100% towards ethical objectives, as I unders

"Count me in as someone who, given the support of basic income, can and will live frugally and give my working self 100% towards ethical objectives, as I understand them." Amen, brother/sister, amen. Exactly how I feel. Also I see you are empathetic towards animals. I have adopted animal welfare and animal rights as my single biggest ethical objective. After working for about 20 years on writing software for domains like transportation, telecommunications, social media, I have decided enough is enough and am going to work towards doing some work (mostly software-related) in the animal welfare area this year and increase it every year. I am not saying anyone who works in the other fields are bad, since people working on different things is what makes the world work. I just feel that I should separate work that pays the bills (Wb) and work that is meaningful (Wm) to me. And the goal is to minimize Wb and maximize Wm in the 24 hrs available. With basic income, Wb would be zero, so that would be ideal.

Lawtonfogle 11y ago
Just a side question on the issue of animal welfare, but how do you handle the paradox of the spider and the butterfly? I'm not sure it has an official name, so a simple description is that some animals kill other animals to keep themselves alive (such as a spider hunting a butterfly), so how do you provide for the welfare of both?
- cgopalan 11y ago
  Good question. I am not opposed to the killing of animals, just the torture involved in the killing. If you see videos of how animals are farmed in slaughterhouses and warehouses, you wonder how humans have degenerated into something so vile that they dont even consider the pain and conditions these sentient beings go through.
  - marknutter 11y ago
    I'm fairly certain spiders are not concerned about the suffering of the butterflies they consume..
    - Thirdegree 11y ago
      Spiders don't have the luxury to be.
    - chiaro 11y ago
      Spiders lack moral agency.
      - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
        They do (lack moral agency), but you and I don't (at least we think we don't, but that is a different issue to save for elsewhere). So, while the spider may not be morally wrong for torturing its prey, I am morally wrong for allowing the spider to torture its prey when I am in a position to stop the spider.
    - cgopalan 11y ago
      Are you seriously comparing animals killing and eating other animals for food with what we do to animals and birds in slaughterhouses? Have you watched videos of slaughterhouses? Have you seen how fur is plucked off rabbits for angora, and feathers off birds for down jackets? In almost all cases, the skin also comes off and they are not even killed after the act but mercilessly left to die on their own. Almost everyone, even if they choose to ignore it, acknowledges the cruelty in the meat and farming industry.
      - marknutter 11y ago
        Have you watched videos of spiders eating their prey? It's more horrific than what we do in most cases. They paralyze them, wrap them up, let them sit there to contemplate their demise, and then suck the blood out of them while they're incapacitated and conscious. Spiders are but one example of the horrific predator/prey dynamic in nature. And to be clear, I'm just as horrified by our treatment of animals as you are but I've learned to make my peace with it. I'm just hoping that lab-grown meat becomes a viable alternative some day and we don't have to grow animals for food.
        11y ago
- WaxProlix 11y ago
  In the case of humans this is obviously just not an issue, though, since we're perfectly capable of existing healthily without killing/eating meat/etc (in fact, it's way more efficient). For other animals, I don't know that we have an obligation to provide welfare for eg spiders and butterflies beyond our own habits, but it's an interesting question.
therealdrag0 11y ago
Have you already done or have leads on what kind of work specifically you can do in the animal welfare area?
- cgopalan 11y ago
  Yes, I have a general idea. I will be polishing and refining it in the 2nd quarter of this year. As of now, it will mostly be a website that provides info about how to inculcate a cruelty-free lifestyle (hopefully without being too preachy). I want it to gather a much larger scope (maybe games or mobile apps to help people understand) but as of now I want to start somewhere, and that will be a simple static website.
  - doctorcroc 11y ago
    Let me know when its up, and what you end up doing to further the cause. Would love to help if possible. Speaking of which, one simple way to enact change in your own life is to minimize the use of animal products in daily actions - i.e. going vegan. You may have already done this, but the impact of an individual's decision to abstain from consuming any animal products has a huge effect.
    - cgopalan 11y ago
      Thanks for the offer. I am excited about this, and would love any help, even if its just in the form of feedback. And yes, I am vegan. I wouldn't dream of taking something up as a cause, if I wasnt already doing something in my life that helps it :)
      - doctorcroc 11y ago
        Awesome. After many years of cognitive dissonance, I finally made the leap to veganism. It has been a challenge, but I am a firm believer that change starts within, and I should reflect that through my actions.
        11y ago

Lawtonfogle 11y ago

Just a side question on the issue of animal welfare, but how do you handle the paradox of the spider and the butterfly? I'm not sure it has an official name, so a simple description is that some animals kill other animals to keep themselves alive (such as a spider hunting a butterfly), so how do you provide for the welfare of both?

cgopalan 11y ago
Good question. I am not opposed to the killing of animals, just the torture involved in the killing. If you see videos of how animals are farmed in slaughterhouses and warehouses, you wonder how humans have degenerated into something so vile that they dont even consider the pain and conditions these sentient beings go through.
- marknutter 11y ago
  I'm fairly certain spiders are not concerned about the suffering of the butterflies they consume..
  - Thirdegree 11y ago
    Spiders don't have the luxury to be.
  - chiaro 11y ago
    Spiders lack moral agency.
    - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
      They do (lack moral agency), but you and I don't (at least we think we don't, but that is a different issue to save for elsewhere). So, while the spider may not be morally wrong for torturing its prey, I am morally wrong for allowing the spider to torture its prey when I am in a position to stop the spider.
  - cgopalan 11y ago
    Are you seriously comparing animals killing and eating other animals for food with what we do to animals and birds in slaughterhouses? Have you watched videos of slaughterhouses? Have you seen how fur is plucked off rabbits for angora, and feathers off birds for down jackets? In almost all cases, the skin also comes off and they are not even killed after the act but mercilessly left to die on their own. Almost everyone, even if they choose to ignore it, acknowledges the cruelty in the meat and farming industry.
    - marknutter 11y ago
      Have you watched videos of spiders eating their prey? It's more horrific than what we do in most cases. They paralyze them, wrap them up, let them sit there to contemplate their demise, and then suck the blood out of them while they're incapacitated and conscious. Spiders are but one example of the horrific predator/prey dynamic in nature. And to be clear, I'm just as horrified by our treatment of animals as you are but I've learned to make my peace with it. I'm just hoping that lab-grown meat becomes a viable alternative some day and we don't have to grow animals for food.
      - 11y ago
WaxProlix 11y ago
In the case of humans this is obviously just not an issue, though, since we're perfectly capable of existing healthily without killing/eating meat/etc (in fact, it's way more efficient). For other animals, I don't know that we have an obligation to provide welfare for eg spiders and butterflies beyond our own habits, but it's an interesting question.

therealdrag0 11y ago

Have you already done or have leads on what kind of work specifically you can do in the animal welfare area?

cgopalan 11y ago
Yes, I have a general idea. I will be polishing and refining it in the 2nd quarter of this year. As of now, it will mostly be a website that provides info about how to inculcate a cruelty-free lifestyle (hopefully without being too preachy). I want it to gather a much larger scope (maybe games or mobile apps to help people understand) but as of now I want to start somewhere, and that will be a simple static website.
- doctorcroc 11y ago
  Let me know when its up, and what you end up doing to further the cause. Would love to help if possible. Speaking of which, one simple way to enact change in your own life is to minimize the use of animal products in daily actions - i.e. going vegan. You may have already done this, but the impact of an individual's decision to abstain from consuming any animal products has a huge effect.
  - cgopalan 11y ago
    Thanks for the offer. I am excited about this, and would love any help, even if its just in the form of feedback. And yes, I am vegan. I wouldn't dream of taking something up as a cause, if I wasnt already doing something in my life that helps it :)
    - doctorcroc 11y ago
      Awesome. After many years of cognitive dissonance, I finally made the leap to veganism. It has been a challenge, but I am a firm believer that change starts within, and I should reflect that through my actions.
      - 11y ago