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Indeed. But what about everyone else? The longer I work in this field and the more I understand about optimization and physical processes, the worse I feel abo

Indeed. But what about everyone else? The longer I work in this field and the more I understand about optimization and physical processes, the worse I feel about the work I do and the work of most programmers. Not "but it's just a social app?!" people, but the people in medicine, law, education, small business, hardware, logistics, etc, all pushing business forward bit by bit, automating away the repetitive pieces and making it easier for those in monetarily advantageous positions to capture the flag. It's hard for me to be too happy when I see ubiquitous animal suffering in a system I'm helping to persist, seemingly towards the end of life on earth altogether. Why do I do it? I need money, and I'm only so strong for now. How can I cooperate when the biggest and greatest are of a world of defectors? Selfishness wins? It's all too easy to conclude, "I can't make a difference, not really", and the probability of making a difference drops to 0, prophesy fulfilled. After all, rent is due, student loan is due. Count me in as someone who, given the support of basic income, can and will live frugally and give my working self 100% towards ethical objectives, as I understand them. In the meantime, this whole "but we have it so great compared to everyone else!!" just makes me feel even worse, over-burdened. If I can't make a difference with all these advantages, without seemingly herculean efforts, then who?

xenihn 11y ago
Great comment, I feel the same way sometimes :(
cgopalan 11y ago
"Count me in as someone who, given the support of basic income, can and will live frugally and give my working self 100% towards ethical objectives, as I understand them." Amen, brother/sister, amen. Exactly how I feel. Also I see you are empathetic towards animals. I have adopted animal welfare and animal rights as my single biggest ethical objective. After working for about 20 years on writing software for domains like transportation, telecommunications, social media, I have decided enough is enough and am going to work towards doing some work (mostly software-related) in the animal welfare area this year and increase it every year. I am not saying anyone who works in the other fields are bad, since people working on different things is what makes the world work. I just feel that I should separate work that pays the bills (Wb) and work that is meaningful (Wm) to me. And the goal is to minimize Wb and maximize Wm in the 24 hrs available. With basic income, Wb would be zero, so that would be ideal.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  Just a side question on the issue of animal welfare, but how do you handle the paradox of the spider and the butterfly? I'm not sure it has an official name, so a simple description is that some animals kill other animals to keep themselves alive (such as a spider hunting a butterfly), so how do you provide for the welfare of both?
  - cgopalan 11y ago
    Good question. I am not opposed to the killing of animals, just the torture involved in the killing. If you see videos of how animals are farmed in slaughterhouses and warehouses, you wonder how humans have degenerated into something so vile that they dont even consider the pain and conditions these sentient beings go through.
    - marknutter 11y ago
      I'm fairly certain spiders are not concerned about the suffering of the butterflies they consume..
      - Thirdegree 11y ago
        Spiders don't have the luxury to be.
      - chiaro 11y ago
        Spiders lack moral agency.
        Lawtonfogle 11y ago
        They do (lack moral agency), but you and I don't (at least we think we don't, but that is a different issue to save for elsewhere). So, while the spider may not be morally wrong for torturing its prey, I am morally wrong for allowing the spider to torture its prey when I am in a position to stop the spider.
      - 11y ago
tertius 11y ago
I think I can add two items to the discussion. 1. People have been automating away other people's jobs for millennia. Even though this has been happening, poverty is at an all time low. 2. It's not your responsibility to make a herculean difference. I can see that the fewer people (the knowledge of this that you're exposed to) there are that try to make a difference the larger your contribution needs to be to even out all the slackers. At least that's how we feel. If we all (those who care) felt this way we'd all get stuck and not do anything. The correct reaction (and only plausible) is to "do your part" as if you were one in 7 billion. The reason why the richest of the rich (think Gates) have campaigns that are public is because they know, even with their wealth, that they cannot make a very large difference with a lot of people changing their habits be that giving or lifestyle.
marknutter 11y ago
> But what about everyone else? The longer I work in this field and the more I understand about optimization and physical processes, the worse I feel about the work I do and the work of most programmers. Not "but it's just a social app?!" people, but the people in medicine, law, education, small business, hardware, logistics, etc, all pushing business forward bit by bit, automating away the repetitive pieces and making it easier for those in monetarily advantageous positions to capture the flag. That's a rather depressing way to look at it. As an engineer, nothing bothers me more than being forced to do a task that can be automated. It's dehumanizing in the same way that working an assembly line or picking fruit in a field is. It's called work for a reason - it's not fun, but it's gotta get done. Every time we automate a dehumanizing aspect of a job, the world collectively benefits. > It's hard for me to be too happy when I see ubiquitous animal suffering in a system I'm helping to persist, seemingly towards the end of life on earth altogether. Why do I do it? I need money, and I'm only so strong for now. How can I cooperate when the biggest and greatest are of a world of defectors? Selfishness wins? It's all too easy to conclude, "I can't make a difference, not really", and the probability of making a difference drops to 0, prophesy fulfilled. After all, rent is due, student loan is due. What are you doing to change things? > Count me in as someone who, given the support of basic income, can and will live frugally and give my working self 100% towards ethical objectives, as I understand them. In the meantime, this whole "but we have it so great compared to everyone else!!" just makes me feel even worse, over-burdened. If I can't make a difference with all these advantages, without seemingly herculean efforts, then who? Do you really need a basic income implementation for this to work? Can't you simply downsize your expenses to x/10 what they are now, work x/10 as much to pay for them, and do whatever you want for the other (10-x)/10 worth of time? Or better yet, can't you start a non-profit that actually works on the issues you feel need fixing so you can earn an income while you do work 100% towards ethical objectives? I don't mean to be rude, but it sounds like you have more excuses than answers.
- cgopalan 11y ago
  "Do you really need a basic income implementation for this to work? Can't you simply downsize your expenses to x/10 what they are now, work x/10 as much to pay for them, and do whatever you want for the other (10-x)/10 worth of time?" I am genuinely curious to know as to how this equation can be practically implemented. To be really effective in your non-work time, x would have to be at most 5 or less. There are multiple problems with this: 1. Reducing expenses to half is pretty tough given the biggest expense is rent/mortgage. 2. Reducing work to half is harder since there are not very many companies that are okay with 20 hrs or less a week. This also means you wont get health insurance. I guess it can be done by moving to a different country with cheaper expenses, job hunting for a while till you find a company that meets your needs, etc, etc. But as a single person or a family in the US, this just doesnt make sense.
cgopalan 11y ago
Btw I couldnt find your email in your profile. I would love to get in touch. If you can send me a quick note, (my email is in my profile) that would be great.

xenihn 11y ago

Great comment, I feel the same way sometimes :(

cgopalan 11y ago

"Count me in as someone who, given the support of basic income, can and will live frugally and give my working self 100% towards ethical objectives, as I understand them." Amen, brother/sister, amen. Exactly how I feel. Also I see you are empathetic towards animals. I have adopted animal welfare and animal rights as my single biggest ethical objective. After working for about 20 years on writing software for domains like transportation, telecommunications, social media, I have decided enough is enough and am going to work towards doing some work (mostly software-related) in the animal welfare area this year and increase it every year. I am not saying anyone who works in the other fields are bad, since people working on different things is what makes the world work. I just feel that I should separate work that pays the bills (Wb) and work that is meaningful (Wm) to me. And the goal is to minimize Wb and maximize Wm in the 24 hrs available. With basic income, Wb would be zero, so that would be ideal.

Lawtonfogle 11y ago
Just a side question on the issue of animal welfare, but how do you handle the paradox of the spider and the butterfly? I'm not sure it has an official name, so a simple description is that some animals kill other animals to keep themselves alive (such as a spider hunting a butterfly), so how do you provide for the welfare of both?
- cgopalan 11y ago
  Good question. I am not opposed to the killing of animals, just the torture involved in the killing. If you see videos of how animals are farmed in slaughterhouses and warehouses, you wonder how humans have degenerated into something so vile that they dont even consider the pain and conditions these sentient beings go through.
  - marknutter 11y ago
    I'm fairly certain spiders are not concerned about the suffering of the butterflies they consume..
    - Thirdegree 11y ago
      Spiders don't have the luxury to be.
    - chiaro 11y ago
      Spiders lack moral agency.
      - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
        They do (lack moral agency), but you and I don't (at least we think we don't, but that is a different issue to save for elsewhere). So, while the spider may not be morally wrong for torturing its prey, I am morally wrong for allowing the spider to torture its prey when I am in a position to stop the spider.
    - 11y ago

tertius 11y ago

I think I can add two items to the discussion. 1. People have been automating away other people's jobs for millennia. Even though this has been happening, poverty is at an all time low. 2. It's not your responsibility to make a herculean difference. I can see that the fewer people (the knowledge of this that you're exposed to) there are that try to make a difference the larger your contribution needs to be to even out all the slackers. At least that's how we feel. If we all (those who care) felt this way we'd all get stuck and not do anything. The correct reaction (and only plausible) is to "do your part" as if you were one in 7 billion. The reason why the richest of the rich (think Gates) have campaigns that are public is because they know, even with their wealth, that they cannot make a very large difference with a lot of people changing their habits be that giving or lifestyle.

marknutter 11y ago

> But what about everyone else? The longer I work in this field and the more I understand about optimization and physical processes, the worse I feel about the work I do and the work of most programmers. Not "but it's just a social app?!" people, but the people in medicine, law, education, small business, hardware, logistics, etc, all pushing business forward bit by bit, automating away the repetitive pieces and making it easier for those in monetarily advantageous positions to capture the flag. That's a rather depressing way to look at it. As an engineer, nothing bothers me more than being forced to do a task that can be automated. It's dehumanizing in the same way that working an assembly line or picking fruit in a field is. It's called work for a reason - it's not fun, but it's gotta get done. Every time we automate a dehumanizing aspect of a job, the world collectively benefits. > It's hard for me to be too happy when I see ubiquitous animal suffering in a system I'm helping to persist, seemingly towards the end of life on earth altogether. Why do I do it? I need money, and I'm only so strong for now. How can I cooperate when the biggest and greatest are of a world of defectors? Selfishness wins? It's all too easy to conclude, "I can't make a difference, not really", and the probability of making a difference drops to 0, prophesy fulfilled. After all, rent is due, student loan is due. What are you doing to change things? > Count me in as someone who, given the support of basic income, can and will live frugally and give my working self 100% towards ethical objectives, as I understand them. In the meantime, this whole "but we have it so great compared to everyone else!!" just makes me feel even worse, over-burdened. If I can't make a difference with all these advantages, without seemingly herculean efforts, then who? Do you really need a basic income implementation for this to work? Can't you simply downsize your expenses to x/10 what they are now, work x/10 as much to pay for them, and do whatever you want for the other (10-x)/10 worth of time? Or better yet, can't you start a non-profit that actually works on the issues you feel need fixing so you can earn an income while you do work 100% towards ethical objectives? I don't mean to be rude, but it sounds like you have more excuses than answers.

cgopalan 11y ago
"Do you really need a basic income implementation for this to work? Can't you simply downsize your expenses to x/10 what they are now, work x/10 as much to pay for them, and do whatever you want for the other (10-x)/10 worth of time?" I am genuinely curious to know as to how this equation can be practically implemented. To be really effective in your non-work time, x would have to be at most 5 or less. There are multiple problems with this: 1. Reducing expenses to half is pretty tough given the biggest expense is rent/mortgage. 2. Reducing work to half is harder since there are not very many companies that are okay with 20 hrs or less a week. This also means you wont get health insurance. I guess it can be done by moving to a different country with cheaper expenses, job hunting for a while till you find a company that meets your needs, etc, etc. But as a single person or a family in the US, this just doesnt make sense.

cgopalan 11y ago

Btw I couldnt find your email in your profile. I would love to get in touch. If you can send me a quick note, (my email is in my profile) that would be great.