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Any time I catch myself complaining about my career I do my best to jolt myself out of it. That's not to say I have nothing to complain about or that aspects of

Any time I catch myself complaining about my career I do my best to jolt myself out of it. That's not to say I have nothing to complain about or that aspects of my career and my job can't be improved, but my god, is there really any other profession in the world that is as lucrative, open, and challenging as programming? There are no bullshit certifications to go through, the best tools and resources are free and open, and the more technology advances the more important it becomes. In no other field can someone start a company with basically zero capital and have a realistic shot at becoming profitable. I am absolutely addicted to programming and the only real downside is that there aren't enough hours in the day to do it.

ck425 11y ago
I agree with this, except for the last line. Software Engineering is a great career in a lot of ways (interesting subject, smart people, flexible, relatively less bureaucratic, good pay etc) and sometimes I forget how damn good I have it compared to most folk. But at the same time there are lots of other things I enjoy and want to do in life beyond just software engineering. I think as an industry we get a bit obsessed about wanting rockstar programmers who want to do nothing but make software. I enjoy my work, I'm grateful for it and I want to get better at it, but there are also lots of other things I want to do, so personally I'm not going to spend all my free time programming and I think that's ok.
- marknutter 11y ago
  > But at the same time there are lots of other things I enjoy and want to do in life beyond just software engineering. I absolutely agree and I learned that the hard way. I guess what I meant was my regret is that it's simply not healthy to program during every waking moment, even though I often wish I could. It's a nice problem to have and certainly better than hating your profession.
- peatfreak 11y ago
  > smart people Uh, I'm not so sure about this. Programmers tend to have a bad habit of severely overestimating their own intelligence. This is one of the things I dislike about the profession: Everybody is so self-assured of their own brilliance.
  - ck425 11y ago
    Hmm personally the majority of people I've worked with are all of at least above-average intelligence and many of them are also very interesting. Met quite a few self-assured smart people at uni (I was one to an extent) but I think most of us grow out of it. Or maybe I've just been lucky where I've worked.
liquidise 11y ago
> the only real downside is that there aren't enough hours in the day to do it I opened this comment section just to write that line. When your hobby becomes your job, you never work a day in your life.
- vonmoltke 11y ago
  Assuming that you do not come to hate your hobby in the process. I know plenty of people who turned their hobby into a job and came to hate it because of all the other things they had to do for work that they avoided when it was just a hobby. Plus, some of them were like me in that being told or required to do something, even if I would have done it anyway, instantly lowers the enjoyment of that activity a bit.
dota_fanatic 11y ago
Indeed. But what about everyone else? The longer I work in this field and the more I understand about optimization and physical processes, the worse I feel about the work I do and the work of most programmers. Not "but it's just a social app?!" people, but the people in medicine, law, education, small business, hardware, logistics, etc, all pushing business forward bit by bit, automating away the repetitive pieces and making it easier for those in monetarily advantageous positions to capture the flag. It's hard for me to be too happy when I see ubiquitous animal suffering in a system I'm helping to persist, seemingly towards the end of life on earth altogether. Why do I do it? I need money, and I'm only so strong for now. How can I cooperate when the biggest and greatest are of a world of defectors? Selfishness wins? It's all too easy to conclude, "I can't make a difference, not really", and the probability of making a difference drops to 0, prophesy fulfilled. After all, rent is due, student loan is due. Count me in as someone who, given the support of basic income, can and will live frugally and give my working self 100% towards ethical objectives, as I understand them. In the meantime, this whole "but we have it so great compared to everyone else!!" just makes me feel even worse, over-burdened. If I can't make a difference with all these advantages, without seemingly herculean efforts, then who?
- xenihn 11y ago
  Great comment, I feel the same way sometimes :(
- cgopalan 11y ago
  "Count me in as someone who, given the support of basic income, can and will live frugally and give my working self 100% towards ethical objectives, as I understand them." Amen, brother/sister, amen. Exactly how I feel. Also I see you are empathetic towards animals. I have adopted animal welfare and animal rights as my single biggest ethical objective. After working for about 20 years on writing software for domains like transportation, telecommunications, social media, I have decided enough is enough and am going to work towards doing some work (mostly software-related) in the animal welfare area this year and increase it every year. I am not saying anyone who works in the other fields are bad, since people working on different things is what makes the world work. I just feel that I should separate work that pays the bills (Wb) and work that is meaningful (Wm) to me. And the goal is to minimize Wb and maximize Wm in the 24 hrs available. With basic income, Wb would be zero, so that would be ideal.
hardwaresofton 11y ago
If I'm reading you right, "realistic shot" = 1 in 10 succeed right? I'm not saying that's right or wrong, good or bad, but just to let people know that's generally the statistic that gets thrown around for becoming profitable as some new tech startup trying to make it. I am unsure if that stat is VC-funded only or contains bootstrapped startups and VC-funded ones. I absolutely agree with your post. This is what I feel when someone asks me "how's work". Any time someone talks to me about wanting to switch careers, I recommend tech for those very reasons -- there are few other high-earning career/profession that can compare.
- zenlikethat 11y ago
  I think the original poster just means that, compared to other industries, the odds of success starting a software company (especially a bootstrapped business or consulting business) is a lot higher than other industries. I'd take software odds over the odds of starting a restaurant that succeeds any day.
  - hardwaresofton 11y ago
    Yep - and with that I completely agree -- just wanted to convey that the odds aren't like... 9/10 succeed, but like you said, it's waaaaay better than starting just about any other type of business
existencebox 11y ago
I can't "disagree" with your post persay, but I can say it doesn't take into account people with different prioritization. That a job is Lucrative does not make it enjoyable. Challenging, as well, can be good, but a day of constant mental challenge does leave you feeling absolutely drained, despite what some sister comments are implying. (And before the inevitable "you have a silver spoon job" comment, I started my working life as a mover for a few years to pay for school/living expenses; It's a different sort of tired for sure, but both sorts keep you from exercising various leisure activities post-factum; but again to preempt comments, yes, mental work does leave your body in better shape in the long run and as I say below, grateful for that) At the end of the day, and perhaps this is in itself a very egocentric world view, I'd be hard pressed to find any work that if I were doing it _as work_ I'd be happy doing. I chose programming because I have a knack for it, have focused my time on it to build skills, and as you say, it's lucrative. But every second of the day (and the implied unpaid overtime that seems prevalent in our industry) there's a little thread in the back of my head going "there's so much to see/do in the world, and already so little time." I want to make music, learn to paint, visit countries I've never heard of, but as long as supporting a family, covering healthcare/retirement savings/housing costs etc are all in the picture, even with as lucrative a career as we have obtaining those ends is a long process that you will likely emit some blood and tears for. So am I Happy as a programmer? Probably more-so than I'd be in many other fields, and certainly grateful for what I have. Am I Happy in an absolute sense? No, I wouldn't say that; and no amount of comparative logic, despite recognizing the ego-centrism, is going to help me reconcile that internally. I'll do my work best I can, not whinge too much, (pushing for a better system in the interim where appropriate for the selfish sake of my own "happiness"), but the moment I get "out" will be one of the truly happiest days of my life. (I could see myself eating those words, and I'll certainly own up to it if that's so, but I don't see that as likely from where I'm currently standing)
ufukbay 11y ago
This is so true. It's human nature to take everything for granted. I need to constantly remind myself that even though I'm not rich, my salary as a frontend developer is definitely way above average. On top of it I work for a big corp with a lot of benefits and most important of all a healthy work climate with exceptional work life balance. To really appreciate our situation one could try to take a month off, and try to live with a limited budget after paying off all the monthly fixed costs. If you have to decide between buying a fancy gadget or food, I think it will be easier to emphasize with people who have to work hard just to provide for their families. I'm happy working as a programmer because I don't have to do repetitive work like for example selling something. Sure, it's not always as exciting as working on a green field project because there is enough legacy code to maintain but overall I like my work.

ck425 11y ago

I agree with this, except for the last line. Software Engineering is a great career in a lot of ways (interesting subject, smart people, flexible, relatively less bureaucratic, good pay etc) and sometimes I forget how damn good I have it compared to most folk. But at the same time there are lots of other things I enjoy and want to do in life beyond just software engineering. I think as an industry we get a bit obsessed about wanting rockstar programmers who want to do nothing but make software. I enjoy my work, I'm grateful for it and I want to get better at it, but there are also lots of other things I want to do, so personally I'm not going to spend all my free time programming and I think that's ok.

marknutter 11y ago
> But at the same time there are lots of other things I enjoy and want to do in life beyond just software engineering. I absolutely agree and I learned that the hard way. I guess what I meant was my regret is that it's simply not healthy to program during every waking moment, even though I often wish I could. It's a nice problem to have and certainly better than hating your profession.
peatfreak 11y ago
> smart people Uh, I'm not so sure about this. Programmers tend to have a bad habit of severely overestimating their own intelligence. This is one of the things I dislike about the profession: Everybody is so self-assured of their own brilliance.
- ck425 11y ago
  Hmm personally the majority of people I've worked with are all of at least above-average intelligence and many of them are also very interesting. Met quite a few self-assured smart people at uni (I was one to an extent) but I think most of us grow out of it. Or maybe I've just been lucky where I've worked.

liquidise 11y ago

> the only real downside is that there aren't enough hours in the day to do it I opened this comment section just to write that line. When your hobby becomes your job, you never work a day in your life.

vonmoltke 11y ago
Assuming that you do not come to hate your hobby in the process. I know plenty of people who turned their hobby into a job and came to hate it because of all the other things they had to do for work that they avoided when it was just a hobby. Plus, some of them were like me in that being told or required to do something, even if I would have done it anyway, instantly lowers the enjoyment of that activity a bit.

dota_fanatic 11y ago

Indeed. But what about everyone else? The longer I work in this field and the more I understand about optimization and physical processes, the worse I feel about the work I do and the work of most programmers. Not "but it's just a social app?!" people, but the people in medicine, law, education, small business, hardware, logistics, etc, all pushing business forward bit by bit, automating away the repetitive pieces and making it easier for those in monetarily advantageous positions to capture the flag. It's hard for me to be too happy when I see ubiquitous animal suffering in a system I'm helping to persist, seemingly towards the end of life on earth altogether. Why do I do it? I need money, and I'm only so strong for now. How can I cooperate when the biggest and greatest are of a world of defectors? Selfishness wins? It's all too easy to conclude, "I can't make a difference, not really", and the probability of making a difference drops to 0, prophesy fulfilled. After all, rent is due, student loan is due. Count me in as someone who, given the support of basic income, can and will live frugally and give my working self 100% towards ethical objectives, as I understand them. In the meantime, this whole "but we have it so great compared to everyone else!!" just makes me feel even worse, over-burdened. If I can't make a difference with all these advantages, without seemingly herculean efforts, then who?

xenihn 11y ago
Great comment, I feel the same way sometimes :(
cgopalan 11y ago
"Count me in as someone who, given the support of basic income, can and will live frugally and give my working self 100% towards ethical objectives, as I understand them." Amen, brother/sister, amen. Exactly how I feel. Also I see you are empathetic towards animals. I have adopted animal welfare and animal rights as my single biggest ethical objective. After working for about 20 years on writing software for domains like transportation, telecommunications, social media, I have decided enough is enough and am going to work towards doing some work (mostly software-related) in the animal welfare area this year and increase it every year. I am not saying anyone who works in the other fields are bad, since people working on different things is what makes the world work. I just feel that I should separate work that pays the bills (Wb) and work that is meaningful (Wm) to me. And the goal is to minimize Wb and maximize Wm in the 24 hrs available. With basic income, Wb would be zero, so that would be ideal.

hardwaresofton 11y ago

If I'm reading you right, "realistic shot" = 1 in 10 succeed right? I'm not saying that's right or wrong, good or bad, but just to let people know that's generally the statistic that gets thrown around for becoming profitable as some new tech startup trying to make it. I am unsure if that stat is VC-funded only or contains bootstrapped startups and VC-funded ones. I absolutely agree with your post. This is what I feel when someone asks me "how's work". Any time someone talks to me about wanting to switch careers, I recommend tech for those very reasons -- there are few other high-earning career/profession that can compare.

zenlikethat 11y ago
I think the original poster just means that, compared to other industries, the odds of success starting a software company (especially a bootstrapped business or consulting business) is a lot higher than other industries. I'd take software odds over the odds of starting a restaurant that succeeds any day.
- hardwaresofton 11y ago
  Yep - and with that I completely agree -- just wanted to convey that the odds aren't like... 9/10 succeed, but like you said, it's waaaaay better than starting just about any other type of business

existencebox 11y ago

I can't "disagree" with your post persay, but I can say it doesn't take into account people with different prioritization. That a job is Lucrative does not make it enjoyable. Challenging, as well, can be good, but a day of constant mental challenge does leave you feeling absolutely drained, despite what some sister comments are implying. (And before the inevitable "you have a silver spoon job" comment, I started my working life as a mover for a few years to pay for school/living expenses; It's a different sort of tired for sure, but both sorts keep you from exercising various leisure activities post-factum; but again to preempt comments, yes, mental work does leave your body in better shape in the long run and as I say below, grateful for that) At the end of the day, and perhaps this is in itself a very egocentric world view, I'd be hard pressed to find any work that if I were doing it _as work_ I'd be happy doing. I chose programming because I have a knack for it, have focused my time on it to build skills, and as you say, it's lucrative. But every second of the day (and the implied unpaid overtime that seems prevalent in our industry) there's a little thread in the back of my head going "there's so much to see/do in the world, and already so little time." I want to make music, learn to paint, visit countries I've never heard of, but as long as supporting a family, covering healthcare/retirement savings/housing costs etc are all in the picture, even with as lucrative a career as we have obtaining those ends is a long process that you will likely emit some blood and tears for. So am I Happy as a programmer? Probably more-so than I'd be in many other fields, and certainly grateful for what I have. Am I Happy in an absolute sense? No, I wouldn't say that; and no amount of comparative logic, despite recognizing the ego-centrism, is going to help me reconcile that internally. I'll do my work best I can, not whinge too much, (pushing for a better system in the interim where appropriate for the selfish sake of my own "happiness"), but the moment I get "out" will be one of the truly happiest days of my life. (I could see myself eating those words, and I'll certainly own up to it if that's so, but I don't see that as likely from where I'm currently standing)

ufukbay 11y ago

This is so true. It's human nature to take everything for granted. I need to constantly remind myself that even though I'm not rich, my salary as a frontend developer is definitely way above average. On top of it I work for a big corp with a lot of benefits and most important of all a healthy work climate with exceptional work life balance. To really appreciate our situation one could try to take a month off, and try to live with a limited budget after paying off all the monthly fixed costs. If you have to decide between buying a fancy gadget or food, I think it will be easier to emphasize with people who have to work hard just to provide for their families. I'm happy working as a programmer because I don't have to do repetitive work like for example selling something. Sure, it's not always as exciting as working on a green field project because there is enough legacy code to maintain but overall I like my work.