6 ms·

I enjoy programming but 'working as a programmer' is infuriating. There are so many interesting product ideas yet 'me-too' CRUD app recreations of previously s

by lhnz 11y ago

I enjoy programming but 'working as a programmer' is infuriating. There are so many interesting product ideas yet 'me-too' CRUD app recreations of previously successful incumbents products are highly desired. This is particularly true in the startup ecosystems where kids talk about 'interesting' problems and finding 'purpose' and yet are blindly following the mantras and motivational speeches of trite capitalists. I currently work as a freelancer/contractor in London and I am happy as I make enough money to finance my own intellectual and creative interests for months on end. I hope I'll soon meet other intellectually curious people doing the same thing, and hope we'll be able to join forces to teach ourselves things or perhaps even work on small projects together. Of course I feel extremely lucky to be in this position which has nothing to do with wanting a slower pace and everything to do with wanting to exert my whole self. And I can't say whether it will be good for me or bad for me; I'm certainly learning a lot about myself and the practicalities of doing this.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
Seconded. Programming is extremely fun and rewarding. Working as a programmer, for me, not so much. Maybe it's because my definition of "interesting problems" is different from what's considered "interesting" to the business world. Maybe because I can barely stand using up most of the day on working on things I don't care about, under time pressure. I know I can do the very same things at 10x the efficiency when I'm not forced to do them. Flipping the single bit labeled "work" is enough to make me lose interest in the task.
herval 11y ago
Do you have any advice for freelancers looking for interesting clients? I'm mostly able to find clients that either 1) want full-time employees or 2) are working on 'me-too' CRUDs (sometimes both).
- lhnz 11y ago
  My suggestion is actually not to find interesting clients. My suggestion is to find high-paying clients and then to become your own 'interesting' client (aka, reduce your lifestyle cost to a point in which you're able to use this money to sustain months of self-directed work). Nothing is perfect and I've no idea whether this particular idiosyncrasy would suit other people - I'm still undecided whether it's for me.
  - bobwaycott 11y ago
    Exactly this. I've been consulting with various clients for the last 4 years. I make a few multiples more than I need to survive, and do not work more than 50% of the working days per year. This is relatively easy to achieve: - I have no debt outside of a couple school loans, which I prioritize paying down to zero. Everything else is either living expenses, or discretionary spending. - I ensure my clients pay for everything they need—hosting, Github, any and all services. This is an easy sell, as it keeps everything firmly in their control and they can replace me at any time. - I charge by the day, not the hour. My clients have never complained, and they seem to find it easier to think and budget in per-day terms.
    - therealdrag0 11y ago
      Can you give more specifics on the typical project you take on? Genre/technologies/size/price.
  - herval 11y ago
    That's basically what I've been doing. I'm not convinced that's the only possible way, which is why I asked. Working on pointless projects is fine for a short period of time (at least for me - I tried that approach multiple times in the past), but a potential source of burnout in the long run...
    - therealdrag0 11y ago
      Have you considered taking a pay cut to work more full time but at a company that you think is doing valuable work? There are a lot of companies trying to "change the world", surely one lines up with your values. Though sometimes the skills they want are more specialized than generic software development (which is what I have :( ).
- eswat 11y ago
  Echoing with the OP said. Figure out who your ideal client is: who they are, what projects they offer, how much they pay, etc. then go to where those ideal clients would hang out. Talk to them, understand them and figure out how you can relieve whatever business discomfort they’re facing. This will take some time but you’ll eventually get a stream of the type of client that can support the lifestyle you want and want to work and refer you continuously.
- awjr 11y ago
  I would suggest looking in the mirror ;) Let's be honest. Freelancers are not there to find "interesting clients". They are a temporary resource that enables a client to get a job done they under-resourced. You have a choice as a freelancer 1) Become money focused. Earn as much as you can for as long as you can. 2) Become idea focused. Earn as much as you can until you have enough to bootstrap the idea. Rinse and repeat. 3) Become money focused but use your income to get the idea fleshed out using upwork.com If you can get a few of you together it will be a better experience. Working at a co-location hub can be worth it.
  - turnip1979 11y ago
    Dumb question .. how does one go about getting started as a freelancer? Are there agencies or some other mechanism to get you started? Specifically, interested in how to get started in North America.
    - Everhusk 11y ago
      There really is no secret. Just go do it. If you're serious about it then incorporating becomes a good idea to protect your assets. I would suggest starting with family and friends at reduced rates to build a portfolio.
    - zzalpha 11y ago
      Find a friend or fellow techie to subcontract for. Use that as a time to learn time management, invoicing and billing, taxes, etc, while you build up a network. This is basically freelance apprenticeship. Do that for maybe a year and then start doing your own thing.
    - cshipley 11y ago
      It's actually a larger question than you perhaps realize. There are different kinds of freelancing. The spectrum ranges from something that looks like "remote" work to something more akin to agency-like project work. That former is much easier. The latter pays better but requires a whole bunch of other skills, and takes much more time. The two aren't mutually exclusive however, and that is what I've done as part of my strategy. There is a monthly find a freelancer thread on here where you might be able to find a gig. Work on building your portfolio/reputation. I'd suggest small projects at reduced rates. Next, I'd visit a lawyer and get a template contract worked out. Rather than have him write one from scratch, find one that includes a lot of the things you want and have him tweak it. It will be cheaper that way. Most important (IMO) are indemnification, terms of payment, and arbitration. Get used to promoting yourself. Have your short and long "elevator pitch" together. Put together a landing page and get some business cards. Talk.To.Everyone! You never know where and when your next client will come from. One of the issues you will run into is the feast or famine issue. You never know when you will get your next client, you have to always be on the lookout and courting -- overloading the queue because a percentage will drop out. If you don't find the next soon enough, then famine. If, as it happens often, several prospects say yes, then you feast. By feast I mean work a lot of hours and save up so you can weather the next famine. What are your skills? Do you have a portfolio? How about an up-to-date linked-in profile?
- gizi 11y ago
  Pick a niche (with good characteristics) and make sure to be good at things in that niche. From there on, the client or employer will obviously pay you in the way that you want (freelance or employee). The work will also be maximally interesting. I personally get a fantastic rate doing pretty much what I like from my home office.
  - yoavm 11y ago
    Could you give an example of niches like that? I'm currently doing all sort of things, ranging from reverse engineering to wordpress websites (yeah, i'm a freelancer...), and I'm super curious to hear what people found out to be "good" niches and what were "bad" niches?
- marknutter 11y ago
  Here's my advice after 7 years of freelancing: https://medium.com/@marknutter/advice-for-the-freelance-developer-68b63c69b050#.l3iyoq8uh https://medium.com/@marknutter/advice-for-the-freelance-deve... (sorry for the blogspam, I'd repost it here but it's long and I'm too lazy to paraphrase right now)
LesZedCB 11y ago
I enjoy X, but 'working doing X' is infuriating. I would bet that most people feel this way. Maybe we should consider alternatives to wage labor that better meet the needs of people instead of the needs of the capitalists...
- marknutter 11y ago
  Why do so many threads always have to devolve into a bizarre condemnation of capitalism? If you don't want to code for a living, then don't code for a living. Do it for fun and make money some other way. If you're upset that you have to work to survive, well, then maybe you need to have a reality check.
  - LesZedCB 11y ago
    It's not bizarre. There is a long historical culture of criticism of capitalism. It's just been squashed in recent decades. I am a particularly privileged individual because I have a choice of what labor I can do, and even how much to an extent. Most people don't have the choice of just switching careers because they feel like it, and even fewer have the option of even realizing that there is some sort of activity that would be more fulfilling than what they do to survive. I believe the reality check needs to occur in the people who are too used to their own comfort that they can't even lift their blinders to look outside their own social environments and see the injustice that is happening on a massive scale in the world.
    - marknutter 11y ago
      > I am a particularly privileged individual because I have a choice of what labor I can do, and even how much to an extent. Most people don't have the choice of just switching careers because they feel like it, and even fewer have the option of even realizing that there is some sort of activity that would be more fulfilling than what they do to survive. This is poisonous thinking. Programming is one of the most accessible industries on the planet that doesn't involve physical labor. If somebody has the desire, they can learn how to program and land a job for FREE. People seem to be squarely divided into two groups in this world: those who believe life happens to them, and those who believe that they make life happen.
tremols 11y ago
The problem with CRUD apps is that they are architected around persistance, the product particularities and business logic are then like second class citizens that must play by CRUD-world or the framework of the year rules. The result is often a mediocre and painful to maintain app which may fulfill a bureaucracies' objectives but for the programmer it feels like being forced to be unprofessional , as if a surgeon was asked to perform an operation with a rusty saw.

by lhnz 11y ago

TeMPOraL 11y ago

Seconded. Programming is extremely fun and rewarding. Working as a programmer, for me, not so much. Maybe it's because my definition of "interesting problems" is different from what's considered "interesting" to the business world. Maybe because I can barely stand using up most of the day on working on things I don't care about, under time pressure. I know I can do the very same things at 10x the efficiency when I'm not forced to do them. Flipping the single bit labeled "work" is enough to make me lose interest in the task.

herval 11y ago

Do you have any advice for freelancers looking for interesting clients? I'm mostly able to find clients that either 1) want full-time employees or 2) are working on 'me-too' CRUDs (sometimes both).

lhnz 11y ago
My suggestion is actually not to find interesting clients. My suggestion is to find high-paying clients and then to become your own 'interesting' client (aka, reduce your lifestyle cost to a point in which you're able to use this money to sustain months of self-directed work). Nothing is perfect and I've no idea whether this particular idiosyncrasy would suit other people - I'm still undecided whether it's for me.
- bobwaycott 11y ago
  Exactly this. I've been consulting with various clients for the last 4 years. I make a few multiples more than I need to survive, and do not work more than 50% of the working days per year. This is relatively easy to achieve: - I have no debt outside of a couple school loans, which I prioritize paying down to zero. Everything else is either living expenses, or discretionary spending. - I ensure my clients pay for everything they need—hosting, Github, any and all services. This is an easy sell, as it keeps everything firmly in their control and they can replace me at any time. - I charge by the day, not the hour. My clients have never complained, and they seem to find it easier to think and budget in per-day terms.
  - therealdrag0 11y ago
    Can you give more specifics on the typical project you take on? Genre/technologies/size/price.
- herval 11y ago
  That's basically what I've been doing. I'm not convinced that's the only possible way, which is why I asked. Working on pointless projects is fine for a short period of time (at least for me - I tried that approach multiple times in the past), but a potential source of burnout in the long run...
  - therealdrag0 11y ago
    Have you considered taking a pay cut to work more full time but at a company that you think is doing valuable work? There are a lot of companies trying to "change the world", surely one lines up with your values. Though sometimes the skills they want are more specialized than generic software development (which is what I have :( ).
eswat 11y ago
Echoing with the OP said. Figure out who your ideal client is: who they are, what projects they offer, how much they pay, etc. then go to where those ideal clients would hang out. Talk to them, understand them and figure out how you can relieve whatever business discomfort they’re facing. This will take some time but you’ll eventually get a stream of the type of client that can support the lifestyle you want and want to work and refer you continuously.
awjr 11y ago
I would suggest looking in the mirror ;) Let's be honest. Freelancers are not there to find "interesting clients". They are a temporary resource that enables a client to get a job done they under-resourced. You have a choice as a freelancer 1) Become money focused. Earn as much as you can for as long as you can. 2) Become idea focused. Earn as much as you can until you have enough to bootstrap the idea. Rinse and repeat. 3) Become money focused but use your income to get the idea fleshed out using upwork.com If you can get a few of you together it will be a better experience. Working at a co-location hub can be worth it.
- turnip1979 11y ago
  Dumb question .. how does one go about getting started as a freelancer? Are there agencies or some other mechanism to get you started? Specifically, interested in how to get started in North America.
  - Everhusk 11y ago
    There really is no secret. Just go do it. If you're serious about it then incorporating becomes a good idea to protect your assets. I would suggest starting with family and friends at reduced rates to build a portfolio.
  - zzalpha 11y ago
    Find a friend or fellow techie to subcontract for. Use that as a time to learn time management, invoicing and billing, taxes, etc, while you build up a network. This is basically freelance apprenticeship. Do that for maybe a year and then start doing your own thing.
  - cshipley 11y ago
    It's actually a larger question than you perhaps realize. There are different kinds of freelancing. The spectrum ranges from something that looks like "remote" work to something more akin to agency-like project work. That former is much easier. The latter pays better but requires a whole bunch of other skills, and takes much more time. The two aren't mutually exclusive however, and that is what I've done as part of my strategy. There is a monthly find a freelancer thread on here where you might be able to find a gig. Work on building your portfolio/reputation. I'd suggest small projects at reduced rates. Next, I'd visit a lawyer and get a template contract worked out. Rather than have him write one from scratch, find one that includes a lot of the things you want and have him tweak it. It will be cheaper that way. Most important (IMO) are indemnification, terms of payment, and arbitration. Get used to promoting yourself. Have your short and long "elevator pitch" together. Put together a landing page and get some business cards. Talk.To.Everyone! You never know where and when your next client will come from. One of the issues you will run into is the feast or famine issue. You never know when you will get your next client, you have to always be on the lookout and courting -- overloading the queue because a percentage will drop out. If you don't find the next soon enough, then famine. If, as it happens often, several prospects say yes, then you feast. By feast I mean work a lot of hours and save up so you can weather the next famine. What are your skills? Do you have a portfolio? How about an up-to-date linked-in profile?
gizi 11y ago
Pick a niche (with good characteristics) and make sure to be good at things in that niche. From there on, the client or employer will obviously pay you in the way that you want (freelance or employee). The work will also be maximally interesting. I personally get a fantastic rate doing pretty much what I like from my home office.
- yoavm 11y ago
  Could you give an example of niches like that? I'm currently doing all sort of things, ranging from reverse engineering to wordpress websites (yeah, i'm a freelancer...), and I'm super curious to hear what people found out to be "good" niches and what were "bad" niches?
marknutter 11y ago
Here's my advice after 7 years of freelancing: https://medium.com/@marknutter/advice-for-the-freelance-developer-68b63c69b050#.l3iyoq8uh https://medium.com/@marknutter/advice-for-the-freelance-deve... (sorry for the blogspam, I'd repost it here but it's long and I'm too lazy to paraphrase right now)

LesZedCB 11y ago

I enjoy X, but 'working doing X' is infuriating. I would bet that most people feel this way. Maybe we should consider alternatives to wage labor that better meet the needs of people instead of the needs of the capitalists...

marknutter 11y ago
Why do so many threads always have to devolve into a bizarre condemnation of capitalism? If you don't want to code for a living, then don't code for a living. Do it for fun and make money some other way. If you're upset that you have to work to survive, well, then maybe you need to have a reality check.
- LesZedCB 11y ago
  It's not bizarre. There is a long historical culture of criticism of capitalism. It's just been squashed in recent decades. I am a particularly privileged individual because I have a choice of what labor I can do, and even how much to an extent. Most people don't have the choice of just switching careers because they feel like it, and even fewer have the option of even realizing that there is some sort of activity that would be more fulfilling than what they do to survive. I believe the reality check needs to occur in the people who are too used to their own comfort that they can't even lift their blinders to look outside their own social environments and see the injustice that is happening on a massive scale in the world.
  - marknutter 11y ago
    > I am a particularly privileged individual because I have a choice of what labor I can do, and even how much to an extent. Most people don't have the choice of just switching careers because they feel like it, and even fewer have the option of even realizing that there is some sort of activity that would be more fulfilling than what they do to survive. This is poisonous thinking. Programming is one of the most accessible industries on the planet that doesn't involve physical labor. If somebody has the desire, they can learn how to program and land a job for FREE. People seem to be squarely divided into two groups in this world: those who believe life happens to them, and those who believe that they make life happen.

tremols 11y ago

The problem with CRUD apps is that they are architected around persistance, the product particularities and business logic are then like second class citizens that must play by CRUD-world or the framework of the year rules. The result is often a mediocre and painful to maintain app which may fulfill a bureaucracies' objectives but for the programmer it feels like being forced to be unprofessional , as if a surgeon was asked to perform an operation with a rusty saw.