5 ms·

Uhh... I have to ask: what, exactly, were you expecting? Exhilarating highs and a path to millions? It's a job. Most people don't have jobs that'll make them

by zzalpha 11y ago

Uhh... I have to ask: what, exactly, were you expecting? Exhilarating highs and a path to millions? It's a job. Most people don't have jobs that'll make them "rich". Be glad you aren't living paycheck to paycheck, or worse, are unemployed because the job you had was optimized away with computers. To be blunt, there's a sense of entitlement evident, here, that I have trouble grokking. You get to spend all day in a comfortable office working with no more than your hands and brain making double to triple what a day labourer pulls in with a hell of a lot more effort. And your complaints are, what, you have to hammer someone else's nails, the work is repetitive, and it isn't a fun party every day while you amass untold riches? Look, I get being dissatisfied. Humans love looking at that greener grass on the other side of things fence. But appreciate what you have. Seriously.

PhasmaFelis 11y ago
A lot of the loudest voices in tech are people who appear to be rapturously happy and fulfilled working 10-12 hour days. It's easy for young people to get the message that good coders love working all the time, with the obvious corollary that if you don't feel that way, you're not a good coder. It's not an accident--spreading that idea makes it easier to buffalo people into the ruinously long hours that some parts of the industry are infamous for. It's important to cut through the 10x rockstar ninja buzzword bullshit and remind people--especially young people--that most coders are working for the weekend just like anyone else.
- zzalpha 11y ago
  This, right here, is a brilliant comment. The pop culture obsession with the valley tech industry, and the resulting insane expectations folks hold when entering the industry, is a disservice to us all. I love the work I do. It's not life changing. It's not going to make me rich in money or in spirit. It's a cushy lifestyle job that gives me the time and monetary freedom to do the other things I'm passionate about. But that doesn't align with the fantasy of the valley, or frankly, the American protestant work ethic.
dikdik 11y ago
This is a horrible comment. There is 100x more to a career than living a comfortable existence. Personally, I want to feel purposeful at work and that I am contributing to a better world. I also absolutely require regular challenges or I end up severely depressed. Also, I have undertaken extensive education partially as a way of raising my standard of living and having a more enjoyable life outside of work. THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS TO DO WITH YOUR LIFE! Yea, it's not always going to be a party, but there's a hell of a lot more to it than sitting in air conditioning. And you're allowed to demand a hell of a lot out of your career as long as you are willing to put in the work to get it. My search for a challenging and intrinsically and extrinsically rewarding career brought me to study the life sciences. Then I ended up in a healthcare company doing menial crap and then a graduate degree in bioinformatics. I'm looking through job-ad after job-ad, and while the occasional one looks challenging I am absolutely terrified that I am going to end up as a desk-monkey who doesn't interact with people and again gets no challenges. I hope I am wrong and I can make this career work for me, but I am already looking at applying to medical school in a year if can't find a challenging and decently rewarding job in bioinfo. Sucks, because I had originally intended on being a doctor when I was in undergrad but went in another direction because I wasn't 100% sure about it at the time. Unfortunately, I am 100% sure I do not enjoy being a desk jockey.
- lgieron 11y ago
  > This is a horrible comment. There is 100x more to a career than living a comfortable existence. I thought so too. However, the funny thing with market economy is that it IS pretty efficient, so jobs that are regarded as satisfying and challenging are approached by so many talented people that they don't have to pay very well and the conditions are usually not great. The solution is to either accept that the role of a career is to get to you to early retirement ASAP (Mr Money Mustache style) or to get excited about something that most people don't care about.
  - user24 11y ago
    > jobs that are regarded as satisfying and challenging are approached by so many talented people that they don't have to pay very well and the conditions are usually not great. Agree! If I could be a florist on a developers salary I would jump at it and never look back.
wr0ngway 11y ago
Working with your brain takes just as much effort as working with your muscles. Think back to taking a multiple hour exam in school, and how knackered you'd feel at the end of it. Now imagine doing that for 8+ hours every day, trying to solve problems that you don't even know have a solution. Yes, your body may still be ready to go, but there's nothing left upstairs to make it happen.
- forgetsusername 11y ago
  >Working with your brain takes just as much effort as working with your muscles. Does working with your brain leave you susceptible to long-term injury or disability?
  - VLM 11y ago
    Obesity and diabetes, sure.
  - joesmo 11y ago
    Repetitive stress injuries like carpal tunnel if you use computers, so absolutely yes!
- patrickdavey 11y ago
  "Working with your brain takes just as much effort as working with your muscles." Well, funny you should say that. Years ago when I first moved to New Zealand (as a backpacker) my mindset was to find a job immediately, then look for a better one. My first "job" was as a labourer. Carrying large marble table tops up narrow windy stairs. Hardest job I ever did! Quit after one day, and my back is probably still thankful for it.
  - oldmanjay 11y ago
    So you weren't physically strong enough to do the job is what you learned. If you weren't smart enough to program, how easy would you find it?
- pikzen 11y ago
rifung 11y ago
I don't know how old you are, but I have a similar experience level with the person you're responding to and I think I and many of my peers relate in some ways. I think the parts he said about getting rich are a bit silly; that's probably more of a personal regret of his/hers then anything else. On the other hand, I think many other people I've talked to who have only worked for a few years kind of feel lost. I guess in a way we've been so busy with school and constantly pressured into finding a good paying job and that it would all be worth it that we didn't take enough time to experience life and find out what actually makes us happy. In fairness, it's also a bit difficult to know if you'll enjoy a job until you actually do it for a while. I like my job, don't get me wrong, and I really do appreciate all the opportunities it gives me. I think the real question is whether that job enables you to do what you truly want to do, or handicaps you instead. I am fortunate enough that my job is the former, but I've certainly taken jobs where it was more the latter.
- Urbanxassassin 11y ago
  This is why I took a year off after undergrad, forget the naysayers. haters gon hate.
- zzalpha 11y ago
  On the other hand, I think many other people I've talked to who have only worked for a few years kind of feel lost. And that, I think, is a failure in our culture. American Protestant ethics teach us that your job should be a deep, elemental, almost spiritual part of who you are as a person. The result is that, when people graduate, and get that job, they discover that working is, quite often, a pretty shallow experience that, if you let it define you, will lead to a pretty unsatisfying existence. So now you have a choice: get dissatisfied and start changing careers, hoping you can find something to give you a sense of meaning and purpose (which, if you're like a lot of people I know, very probably means you never excel at any one thing and therefore never get to the point of having a sustainable career that can fuel a fulfilling lifestyle). Or, start spreading those wings and becoming a well rounded person so that you're defined by more than your career. I advise the latter. Speaking for myself, I have a great lifestyle job. I love the people I work with, and the projects are reasonably interesting but not life changing, and occasionally repetitive. The work environment is comfortable and laid back, and I get to leave work at the office. The job absolutely will not make me rich, but it allows me to engage in not exactly cheap extracurricular activities (traveling, skiing, etc), while leaving me with free time to pursue numerous hobbies beyond programming. To me, this constitutes success.
geebee 11y ago
I agree with you, but there are two very different angles on this. On one hand, there are programmers complaining that they can't get exactly the job they want at what they feel is good pay. Your answer to these complaints is fair enough - lots of people have it tough. Nobody is entitled to a job on their own terms. You choose your own life. The other angle is the employer who complains about the "shortage" of software developers out there who have top skills and are ready and willing to work for the salary the employer feels is fair in a big, loud, open office with little autonomy or job security. This second, employer-based sense of entitlement is no less appalling in my opinion. I'm going to guess we disagree on the stress level involved in being a programmer, where you are almost always pressured to commit to deadlines on things you don't yet understand, where people blame you for schedule slips, where you are tempted to compromise to meet deadlines but know that you are cutting corners that may lead to real risk, where you can make errors that destroy data and/or prevent thousands of people from getting work done, where you may severely compromise secure data, and so forth.. in short, I do think it is a job that people can reasonably find very stressful. I think that people overstate the "cushiness" of programming and IT jobs. These jobs can really induce and trigger anxiety, it doesn't take an entitled whiner to feel that way, at all. Say what you will about programmers, it's the employers (at least here in the States) whose sense of entitlement about who they should be able to hire at "market rate" is so strong they will lobby congress rather that pay more or find ways to make the job less stressful.

by zzalpha 11y ago

PhasmaFelis 11y ago

A lot of the loudest voices in tech are people who appear to be rapturously happy and fulfilled working 10-12 hour days. It's easy for young people to get the message that good coders love working all the time, with the obvious corollary that if you don't feel that way, you're not a good coder. It's not an accident--spreading that idea makes it easier to buffalo people into the ruinously long hours that some parts of the industry are infamous for. It's important to cut through the 10x rockstar ninja buzzword bullshit and remind people--especially young people--that most coders are working for the weekend just like anyone else.

zzalpha 11y ago
This, right here, is a brilliant comment. The pop culture obsession with the valley tech industry, and the resulting insane expectations folks hold when entering the industry, is a disservice to us all. I love the work I do. It's not life changing. It's not going to make me rich in money or in spirit. It's a cushy lifestyle job that gives me the time and monetary freedom to do the other things I'm passionate about. But that doesn't align with the fantasy of the valley, or frankly, the American protestant work ethic.

dikdik 11y ago

This is a horrible comment. There is 100x more to a career than living a comfortable existence. Personally, I want to feel purposeful at work and that I am contributing to a better world. I also absolutely require regular challenges or I end up severely depressed. Also, I have undertaken extensive education partially as a way of raising my standard of living and having a more enjoyable life outside of work. THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS TO DO WITH YOUR LIFE! Yea, it's not always going to be a party, but there's a hell of a lot more to it than sitting in air conditioning. And you're allowed to demand a hell of a lot out of your career as long as you are willing to put in the work to get it. My search for a challenging and intrinsically and extrinsically rewarding career brought me to study the life sciences. Then I ended up in a healthcare company doing menial crap and then a graduate degree in bioinformatics. I'm looking through job-ad after job-ad, and while the occasional one looks challenging I am absolutely terrified that I am going to end up as a desk-monkey who doesn't interact with people and again gets no challenges. I hope I am wrong and I can make this career work for me, but I am already looking at applying to medical school in a year if can't find a challenging and decently rewarding job in bioinfo. Sucks, because I had originally intended on being a doctor when I was in undergrad but went in another direction because I wasn't 100% sure about it at the time. Unfortunately, I am 100% sure I do not enjoy being a desk jockey.

lgieron 11y ago
> This is a horrible comment. There is 100x more to a career than living a comfortable existence. I thought so too. However, the funny thing with market economy is that it IS pretty efficient, so jobs that are regarded as satisfying and challenging are approached by so many talented people that they don't have to pay very well and the conditions are usually not great. The solution is to either accept that the role of a career is to get to you to early retirement ASAP (Mr Money Mustache style) or to get excited about something that most people don't care about.
- user24 11y ago
  > jobs that are regarded as satisfying and challenging are approached by so many talented people that they don't have to pay very well and the conditions are usually not great. Agree! If I could be a florist on a developers salary I would jump at it and never look back.

wr0ngway 11y ago

Working with your brain takes just as much effort as working with your muscles. Think back to taking a multiple hour exam in school, and how knackered you'd feel at the end of it. Now imagine doing that for 8+ hours every day, trying to solve problems that you don't even know have a solution. Yes, your body may still be ready to go, but there's nothing left upstairs to make it happen.

forgetsusername 11y ago
>Working with your brain takes just as much effort as working with your muscles. Does working with your brain leave you susceptible to long-term injury or disability?
- VLM 11y ago
  Obesity and diabetes, sure.
- joesmo 11y ago
  Repetitive stress injuries like carpal tunnel if you use computers, so absolutely yes!
patrickdavey 11y ago
"Working with your brain takes just as much effort as working with your muscles." Well, funny you should say that. Years ago when I first moved to New Zealand (as a backpacker) my mindset was to find a job immediately, then look for a better one. My first "job" was as a labourer. Carrying large marble table tops up narrow windy stairs. Hardest job I ever did! Quit after one day, and my back is probably still thankful for it.
- oldmanjay 11y ago
  So you weren't physically strong enough to do the job is what you learned. If you weren't smart enough to program, how easy would you find it?
pikzen 11y ago

rifung 11y ago

I don't know how old you are, but I have a similar experience level with the person you're responding to and I think I and many of my peers relate in some ways. I think the parts he said about getting rich are a bit silly; that's probably more of a personal regret of his/hers then anything else. On the other hand, I think many other people I've talked to who have only worked for a few years kind of feel lost. I guess in a way we've been so busy with school and constantly pressured into finding a good paying job and that it would all be worth it that we didn't take enough time to experience life and find out what actually makes us happy. In fairness, it's also a bit difficult to know if you'll enjoy a job until you actually do it for a while. I like my job, don't get me wrong, and I really do appreciate all the opportunities it gives me. I think the real question is whether that job enables you to do what you truly want to do, or handicaps you instead. I am fortunate enough that my job is the former, but I've certainly taken jobs where it was more the latter.

Urbanxassassin 11y ago
This is why I took a year off after undergrad, forget the naysayers. haters gon hate.
zzalpha 11y ago
On the other hand, I think many other people I've talked to who have only worked for a few years kind of feel lost. And that, I think, is a failure in our culture. American Protestant ethics teach us that your job should be a deep, elemental, almost spiritual part of who you are as a person. The result is that, when people graduate, and get that job, they discover that working is, quite often, a pretty shallow experience that, if you let it define you, will lead to a pretty unsatisfying existence. So now you have a choice: get dissatisfied and start changing careers, hoping you can find something to give you a sense of meaning and purpose (which, if you're like a lot of people I know, very probably means you never excel at any one thing and therefore never get to the point of having a sustainable career that can fuel a fulfilling lifestyle). Or, start spreading those wings and becoming a well rounded person so that you're defined by more than your career. I advise the latter. Speaking for myself, I have a great lifestyle job. I love the people I work with, and the projects are reasonably interesting but not life changing, and occasionally repetitive. The work environment is comfortable and laid back, and I get to leave work at the office. The job absolutely will not make me rich, but it allows me to engage in not exactly cheap extracurricular activities (traveling, skiing, etc), while leaving me with free time to pursue numerous hobbies beyond programming. To me, this constitutes success.

geebee 11y ago

I agree with you, but there are two very different angles on this. On one hand, there are programmers complaining that they can't get exactly the job they want at what they feel is good pay. Your answer to these complaints is fair enough - lots of people have it tough. Nobody is entitled to a job on their own terms. You choose your own life. The other angle is the employer who complains about the "shortage" of software developers out there who have top skills and are ready and willing to work for the salary the employer feels is fair in a big, loud, open office with little autonomy or job security. This second, employer-based sense of entitlement is no less appalling in my opinion. I'm going to guess we disagree on the stress level involved in being a programmer, where you are almost always pressured to commit to deadlines on things you don't yet understand, where people blame you for schedule slips, where you are tempted to compromise to meet deadlines but know that you are cutting corners that may lead to real risk, where you can make errors that destroy data and/or prevent thousands of people from getting work done, where you may severely compromise secure data, and so forth.. in short, I do think it is a job that people can reasonably find very stressful. I think that people overstate the "cushiness" of programming and IT jobs. These jobs can really induce and trigger anxiety, it doesn't take an entitled whiner to feel that way, at all. Say what you will about programmers, it's the employers (at least here in the States) whose sense of entitlement about who they should be able to hire at "market rate" is so strong they will lobby congress rather that pay more or find ways to make the job less stressful.