2 ms·

>Or it can result in spec which helps everyone instead of just MS alone. Just MS alone? DirectX helps hundreds of millions of gamers, a whole bunch of game and

>Or it can result in spec which helps everyone instead of just MS alone. Just MS alone? DirectX helps hundreds of millions of gamers, a whole bunch of game and application developers and companies. That's like saying improvements to the Linux kernel help only the Linux kernel. >Vulkan is done from scratch, and so far I see no signs of them making mistakes of OpenGL Huh, how do you see that? The spec is developed behind closed doors by corporate folks each with their own interests. Even the W3C holds open discussions with specs. A real alternative would be for the FOSS/Linux dev community to create and implement a standard properly.

shmerl 11y ago
> Just MS alone? Yes. How can you use DirectX on non MS platforms? If MS wanted to help someone besides themselves, you could answer that question in a satisfactory fashion. But of course, they don't care about it, they only care about lock-in. Trying to pretend that lock-in serves anyone besides those who push for such lock-in is highly disingenuous. > Huh, how do you see that? From what was published about it so far (origin in Mantle, collaborative input of those who know better and so on). > A real alternative would be for the FOSS/Linux dev community to create and implement a standard properly. Linux community was involved. In fact the main link in this post is from one of the contributors to Wayland and Mesa who was working on Vulkan.
- angersock 11y ago
  Other folks are beating about the bush, so I'll just come out and say it: Linux is basically irrelevant to game developers. Other folks have been nice, but let's just be clear here. Linux's graphics story is a stupid joke, the driver story is a stupid joke, the 3D story by way of OpenGL is a stupid joke, audio is a stupid joke. That's why it doesn't matter if you can only use DirectCX on MS platforms--because by reaching only that teensy tiny vast majority of installed computers, devs can do well. MS has always treated their developers better than anything in the 'nix or BSD ecosystem, and that extends to better thought-out and implemented APIs. Sorry, but that's the world we live in, and in reality there is little point in MS worrying about a non-DX API--and little point in supporting one if you're making games for PC.
  - shmerl 11y ago
    > Linux is basically irrelevant to game developers. Sounds like a quote form early 2000s. We are long since past that. If you didn't pay attention to the last few years - then may be research what's going on now. > That's why it doesn't matter if you can only use DirectCX on MS platforms It does matter. Lock-in forces developers to do double work. I.e. if they can't reuse the effort - they need to duplicate it. To put it differently - MS on purpose increases the cost of making cross platform games. Obviously for the reason of putting competing platforms at a disadvantage. How can any developer find such behavior beneficial is hard to understand. All normal developers have no respect for lock-in. > MS has always treated their developers better than anything Oh, really? Forcing people to do double work is not called treating you better. It's called being a jerk. And jerks they are, same as anyone who uses tools for lock-in purposes (instead of for what they should be - tools).
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      So to be clear, you are calling all the game industry studios that specialize in platforms, porting and tooling, a practice that goes all the way back to the industry roots, jerks.
      - shmerl 11y ago
        > you are calling all the game industry studios that specialize in platforms, porting and tooling, a practice that goes all the way back to the industry roots, jerks. How exactly did you read that into my words? I said those who force people to do double work are jerks. I.e. those who create and enforce lock-in (MS and their ilk). Why would developers who have no option but to do that double work be jerks? It wasn't their decision and they have no control over those who create those walled gardens and lock-in. Practice of lock-in doesn't go to "industry roots". It goes to those jerks who don't care about the industry and want to make life harder for developers by making tooling useless outside given walled gardens. Their selfish and stupid idea is based on assumption that the harder and more costly it is for anyone to do the work (because of duplication), the less likely they'll do it, thus sticking only to the walled garden they initially focused on. I.e. their usual exclusivity idea. Remember browser lock-in? Same idea here. It has nothing to do with the industry - it's all about jerkiness of those who make the tools and control the market.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  How can you use LibGCM on non Sony platforms? How can you use GX on non Nintendo platforms?
  - shmerl 11y ago
    Sony, Nintendo and Apple are as guilty of lock-in as MS is. At least Nintendo, Apple and Sony are part of the Vulkan working group. Whether they'll support Vulkan on their walled gardens - time will tell. If they'll outgrow their petty lock-in mentality, they might. But MS didn't even join. To be clear - I have no respect for lock-in whether it comes from MS, Nintendo, Sony, Apple or whoever else.

shmerl 11y ago

> Just MS alone? Yes. How can you use DirectX on non MS platforms? If MS wanted to help someone besides themselves, you could answer that question in a satisfactory fashion. But of course, they don't care about it, they only care about lock-in. Trying to pretend that lock-in serves anyone besides those who push for such lock-in is highly disingenuous. > Huh, how do you see that? From what was published about it so far (origin in Mantle, collaborative input of those who know better and so on). > A real alternative would be for the FOSS/Linux dev community to create and implement a standard properly. Linux community was involved. In fact the main link in this post is from one of the contributors to Wayland and Mesa who was working on Vulkan.

angersock 11y ago
Other folks are beating about the bush, so I'll just come out and say it: Linux is basically irrelevant to game developers. Other folks have been nice, but let's just be clear here. Linux's graphics story is a stupid joke, the driver story is a stupid joke, the 3D story by way of OpenGL is a stupid joke, audio is a stupid joke. That's why it doesn't matter if you can only use DirectCX on MS platforms--because by reaching only that teensy tiny vast majority of installed computers, devs can do well. MS has always treated their developers better than anything in the 'nix or BSD ecosystem, and that extends to better thought-out and implemented APIs. Sorry, but that's the world we live in, and in reality there is little point in MS worrying about a non-DX API--and little point in supporting one if you're making games for PC.
- shmerl 11y ago
  > Linux is basically irrelevant to game developers. Sounds like a quote form early 2000s. We are long since past that. If you didn't pay attention to the last few years - then may be research what's going on now. > That's why it doesn't matter if you can only use DirectCX on MS platforms It does matter. Lock-in forces developers to do double work. I.e. if they can't reuse the effort - they need to duplicate it. To put it differently - MS on purpose increases the cost of making cross platform games. Obviously for the reason of putting competing platforms at a disadvantage. How can any developer find such behavior beneficial is hard to understand. All normal developers have no respect for lock-in. > MS has always treated their developers better than anything Oh, really? Forcing people to do double work is not called treating you better. It's called being a jerk. And jerks they are, same as anyone who uses tools for lock-in purposes (instead of for what they should be - tools).
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    So to be clear, you are calling all the game industry studios that specialize in platforms, porting and tooling, a practice that goes all the way back to the industry roots, jerks.
    - shmerl 11y ago
      > you are calling all the game industry studios that specialize in platforms, porting and tooling, a practice that goes all the way back to the industry roots, jerks. How exactly did you read that into my words? I said those who force people to do double work are jerks. I.e. those who create and enforce lock-in (MS and their ilk). Why would developers who have no option but to do that double work be jerks? It wasn't their decision and they have no control over those who create those walled gardens and lock-in. Practice of lock-in doesn't go to "industry roots". It goes to those jerks who don't care about the industry and want to make life harder for developers by making tooling useless outside given walled gardens. Their selfish and stupid idea is based on assumption that the harder and more costly it is for anyone to do the work (because of duplication), the less likely they'll do it, thus sticking only to the walled garden they initially focused on. I.e. their usual exclusivity idea. Remember browser lock-in? Same idea here. It has nothing to do with the industry - it's all about jerkiness of those who make the tools and control the market.
pjmlp 11y ago
How can you use LibGCM on non Sony platforms? How can you use GX on non Nintendo platforms?
- shmerl 11y ago
  Sony, Nintendo and Apple are as guilty of lock-in as MS is. At least Nintendo, Apple and Sony are part of the Vulkan working group. Whether they'll support Vulkan on their walled gardens - time will tell. If they'll outgrow their petty lock-in mentality, they might. But MS didn't even join. To be clear - I have no respect for lock-in whether it comes from MS, Nintendo, Sony, Apple or whoever else.