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We can criticize Taubes for his low-carb advocacy, but that article is only indirectly related to low-carb diets: it's about how the USDA standards were determ

We can criticize Taubes for his low-carb advocacy, but that article is only indirectly related to low-carb diets: it's about how the USDA standards were determined. Moreover, a rebuttal from a site called "plant positive" hardly stacks up against a peer-reviewed source... just saying... The second paper draws distinctions between several forms of fat hilighting the weak evidentiary link between most fats and CHD. Trans fats are an obvious exception. I posted it in response to the claim that low-fat diets are almost certainly healthier. At the very least, that paper reveals that eating meat isn't incompatible with longevity and good health, contrary to claims you've been making all over this comments section. But since you asked, here's what 5s on sci-hub revealed, clicking literally on the first two links without looking: - http://goo.gl/tWB3LA http://goo.gl/tWB3LA // Maternal vegan diet causing a serious infantile neurological disorder due to vitamin B12 deficiency - http://search.proquest.com.sci-hub.io/docview/197420736?pq-origsite=gscholar http://search.proquest.com.sci-hub.io/docview/197420736?pq-o... // yeah, ok, it's raw-vegan, but the B12 issue applies to all vegans (as noted in the refs of paper 1), especially since many can't seem to distinguish between B12 contents and bioavailable B12 ... To be clear, my claim isn't that vegan diets are unhealthy. Rather, it's that we don't really know much due to the poor state of nutritional epidemiology, and that there's at least some evidence showing that veganism is really hard to get right.

noondip 11y ago
The paper doesn't categorize low-fat vegan diets. The closest to it was recognized though: "only a Mediterranean dietary pattern was related to CHD in RCTs." (assuming saturated fat from meat was replaced with MUFAs or PUFAs). Also, the B12 boogeyman? Just take a weekly supplement and be fine.
- omginternets 11y ago
  >The paper doesn't categorize low-fat vegan diets The point wasn't to do a systematic review of the literature, but rather to counter your argument whereby those skeptical of the lipid hypothesis are equivalent to climate change deniers. If you're actually interested in this stuff, I invite you to cultivate a genuine interest in the matter and use this nifty little link to get to all the paywalled papers your heart desires: http://sci-hub.io/ http://sci-hub.io/ Further, I'd be happy to share what I think good guidelines are for separating wheat from chaff in nutritional epidemiology studies. >Also, the B12 boogeyman? Just take a weekly supplement and be fine. I mean no disrespect, but I find this answer to be as comical as it is widespread. In one fell swoop, you've (A) implied that vegan diets are not balanced (B) ignored the body of literature surrounding the (possible) toxicity of artificial vitamins (C) undermined your sustainability argument. Moreover, B12 is but one example; I again invite you to make liberal use of sci-hub, pubmed and google scholar.
  - noondip 11y ago
    So now vegans are purportedly dying by the millions from B12 vitamin toxicity? The same ones which are routinely fed to livestock? The level to which someone will go to justify their addiction to animal foods is truly remarkable.
    - omginternets 11y ago
      >So now vegans are purportedly dying by the millions from B12 vitamin toxicity? That's a very, very strange interpretation of what I wrote. On the purely academic point, it's even more ridiculous in that one doesn't have to die from a bad diet in order for it to be unhealthy. Your comment is both a red-herring and a straw-man at the same time! >The level to which someone will go to justify their addiction to animal foods is truly remarkable. As I suspected, it's really not about health, is it? ## Edit, re your comment below: I see the misunderstanding. You skipped the part where I said those where the first two results of a search that took me 5 seconds. You can find other examples pertaining to deficiencies in lean body mass, vitamin D, and (IIRC) testosterone in men. The cortisol literature also gives very mixed results, so while I suspect the causes are actually not related to veganism per se, I seriously question the purported protective effects thereupon. Again, I've given you all the tools to learn about this on your own, but you'd apparently rather quote "plant positive" than cultivate an interest in science. Best of luck.
      - noondip 11y ago
        The only deficiency you could find with a vegan diet was B12 in a few case studies, which is easily remedied by taking a supplement or eating fortified foods, to which you opposed with a dubious claim supplements can be toxic. All the while, you ignore the overwhelming evidence against eating animal foods, vegetable oils and other high-fat processed foods. In fact, it is more about mental health, namely the addiction people have to eating animals. I see you would rather allude to "some" evidence of "some" problems with the vegan diet, which is known as confirmation bias.
        11y ago
- brandonmenc 11y ago
  > Also, the B12 boogeyman? Just take a weekly supplement and be fine. Or just eat a couple spoonfuls of nutritional yeast every day.
  - CountSessine 11y ago
    What happens if you forget? Does your body tell you? Do you suddenly get hungry for nutritional yeast?
    - brandonmenc 11y ago
      You may as well argue that people shouldn't live up North because they won't get enough vitamin D without supplementation.
      - CountSessine 11y ago
        No - I'm curious about this. Vitamin D deficiency and rickets is a slow-onset condition with a long period for remediation without permanent damage. And no one ever died or had their brains explode from being on the South Beach Diet. B12 deficiency manifests itself as acute and irreversible nervous system damage. It's a fair question - do you notice when you don't get enough B12?
        brandonmenc 11y ago
        Studies suggest vitamin D deficiency can cause brain and nerve damage. You can say the same thing for magnesium deficiency - it causes permanent damage over time. Furthermore, 75% of the population is deficient in it, and it's nearly impossible to detect and diagnose a deficiency. Your body doesn't tell you "hey, time to eat some magnesium" the way it tells you to eat food. Chances are you (yes, you) are deficient in magnesium, unless you take a supplement. Yes, B12 deficiency is serious, but there are other equally important vitamins and minerals that even non-vegetarians are deficient in, whose symptoms are difficult to detect, and require supplementation to fix. Vegetarian diets don't have the monopoly on required supplementation.

noondip 11y ago

The paper doesn't categorize low-fat vegan diets. The closest to it was recognized though: "only a Mediterranean dietary pattern was related to CHD in RCTs." (assuming saturated fat from meat was replaced with MUFAs or PUFAs). Also, the B12 boogeyman? Just take a weekly supplement and be fine.

omginternets 11y ago
>The paper doesn't categorize low-fat vegan diets The point wasn't to do a systematic review of the literature, but rather to counter your argument whereby those skeptical of the lipid hypothesis are equivalent to climate change deniers. If you're actually interested in this stuff, I invite you to cultivate a genuine interest in the matter and use this nifty little link to get to all the paywalled papers your heart desires: http://sci-hub.io/ http://sci-hub.io/ Further, I'd be happy to share what I think good guidelines are for separating wheat from chaff in nutritional epidemiology studies. >Also, the B12 boogeyman? Just take a weekly supplement and be fine. I mean no disrespect, but I find this answer to be as comical as it is widespread. In one fell swoop, you've (A) implied that vegan diets are not balanced (B) ignored the body of literature surrounding the (possible) toxicity of artificial vitamins (C) undermined your sustainability argument. Moreover, B12 is but one example; I again invite you to make liberal use of sci-hub, pubmed and google scholar.
- noondip 11y ago
  So now vegans are purportedly dying by the millions from B12 vitamin toxicity? The same ones which are routinely fed to livestock? The level to which someone will go to justify their addiction to animal foods is truly remarkable.
  - omginternets 11y ago
    >So now vegans are purportedly dying by the millions from B12 vitamin toxicity? That's a very, very strange interpretation of what I wrote. On the purely academic point, it's even more ridiculous in that one doesn't have to die from a bad diet in order for it to be unhealthy. Your comment is both a red-herring and a straw-man at the same time! >The level to which someone will go to justify their addiction to animal foods is truly remarkable. As I suspected, it's really not about health, is it? ## Edit, re your comment below: I see the misunderstanding. You skipped the part where I said those where the first two results of a search that took me 5 seconds. You can find other examples pertaining to deficiencies in lean body mass, vitamin D, and (IIRC) testosterone in men. The cortisol literature also gives very mixed results, so while I suspect the causes are actually not related to veganism per se, I seriously question the purported protective effects thereupon. Again, I've given you all the tools to learn about this on your own, but you'd apparently rather quote "plant positive" than cultivate an interest in science. Best of luck.
    - noondip 11y ago
      The only deficiency you could find with a vegan diet was B12 in a few case studies, which is easily remedied by taking a supplement or eating fortified foods, to which you opposed with a dubious claim supplements can be toxic. All the while, you ignore the overwhelming evidence against eating animal foods, vegetable oils and other high-fat processed foods. In fact, it is more about mental health, namely the addiction people have to eating animals. I see you would rather allude to "some" evidence of "some" problems with the vegan diet, which is known as confirmation bias.
      - 11y ago
brandonmenc 11y ago
> Also, the B12 boogeyman? Just take a weekly supplement and be fine. Or just eat a couple spoonfuls of nutritional yeast every day.
- CountSessine 11y ago
  What happens if you forget? Does your body tell you? Do you suddenly get hungry for nutritional yeast?
  - brandonmenc 11y ago
    You may as well argue that people shouldn't live up North because they won't get enough vitamin D without supplementation.
    - CountSessine 11y ago
      No - I'm curious about this. Vitamin D deficiency and rickets is a slow-onset condition with a long period for remediation without permanent damage. And no one ever died or had their brains explode from being on the South Beach Diet. B12 deficiency manifests itself as acute and irreversible nervous system damage. It's a fair question - do you notice when you don't get enough B12?
      - brandonmenc 11y ago
        Studies suggest vitamin D deficiency can cause brain and nerve damage. You can say the same thing for magnesium deficiency - it causes permanent damage over time. Furthermore, 75% of the population is deficient in it, and it's nearly impossible to detect and diagnose a deficiency. Your body doesn't tell you "hey, time to eat some magnesium" the way it tells you to eat food. Chances are you (yes, you) are deficient in magnesium, unless you take a supplement. Yes, B12 deficiency is serious, but there are other equally important vitamins and minerals that even non-vegetarians are deficient in, whose symptoms are difficult to detect, and require supplementation to fix. Vegetarian diets don't have the monopoly on required supplementation.