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Please, not Gary Taubes - see http://plantpositive.com/1-the-journalist-gary-taubes-1/ http://plantpositive.com/1-the-journalist-gary-taubes-1/ The second pape

by noondip 11y ago

Please, not Gary Taubes - see http://plantpositive.com/1-the-journalist-gary-taubes-1/ http://plantpositive.com/1-the-journalist-gary-taubes-1/ The second paper you've linked, the systematic review, is actually mostly in favor of a vegan diet. How does that raise questions about consuming animal fat and CHD?

omginternets 11y ago
We can criticize Taubes for his low-carb advocacy, but that article is only indirectly related to low-carb diets: it's about how the USDA standards were determined. Moreover, a rebuttal from a site called "plant positive" hardly stacks up against a peer-reviewed source... just saying... The second paper draws distinctions between several forms of fat hilighting the weak evidentiary link between most fats and CHD. Trans fats are an obvious exception. I posted it in response to the claim that low-fat diets are almost certainly healthier. At the very least, that paper reveals that eating meat isn't incompatible with longevity and good health, contrary to claims you've been making all over this comments section. But since you asked, here's what 5s on sci-hub revealed, clicking literally on the first two links without looking: - http://goo.gl/tWB3LA http://goo.gl/tWB3LA // Maternal vegan diet causing a serious infantile neurological disorder due to vitamin B12 deficiency - http://search.proquest.com.sci-hub.io/docview/197420736?pq-origsite=gscholar http://search.proquest.com.sci-hub.io/docview/197420736?pq-o... // yeah, ok, it's raw-vegan, but the B12 issue applies to all vegans (as noted in the refs of paper 1), especially since many can't seem to distinguish between B12 contents and bioavailable B12 ... To be clear, my claim isn't that vegan diets are unhealthy. Rather, it's that we don't really know much due to the poor state of nutritional epidemiology, and that there's at least some evidence showing that veganism is really hard to get right.
- noondip 11y ago
  The paper doesn't categorize low-fat vegan diets. The closest to it was recognized though: "only a Mediterranean dietary pattern was related to CHD in RCTs." (assuming saturated fat from meat was replaced with MUFAs or PUFAs). Also, the B12 boogeyman? Just take a weekly supplement and be fine.
  - omginternets 11y ago
    >The paper doesn't categorize low-fat vegan diets The point wasn't to do a systematic review of the literature, but rather to counter your argument whereby those skeptical of the lipid hypothesis are equivalent to climate change deniers. If you're actually interested in this stuff, I invite you to cultivate a genuine interest in the matter and use this nifty little link to get to all the paywalled papers your heart desires: http://sci-hub.io/ http://sci-hub.io/ Further, I'd be happy to share what I think good guidelines are for separating wheat from chaff in nutritional epidemiology studies. >Also, the B12 boogeyman? Just take a weekly supplement and be fine. I mean no disrespect, but I find this answer to be as comical as it is widespread. In one fell swoop, you've (A) implied that vegan diets are not balanced (B) ignored the body of literature surrounding the (possible) toxicity of artificial vitamins (C) undermined your sustainability argument. Moreover, B12 is but one example; I again invite you to make liberal use of sci-hub, pubmed and google scholar.
    - noondip 11y ago
      So now vegans are purportedly dying by the millions from B12 vitamin toxicity? The same ones which are routinely fed to livestock? The level to which someone will go to justify their addiction to animal foods is truly remarkable.
      - omginternets 11y ago
        >So now vegans are purportedly dying by the millions from B12 vitamin toxicity? That's a very, very strange interpretation of what I wrote. On the purely academic point, it's even more ridiculous in that one doesn't have to die from a bad diet in order for it to be unhealthy. Your comment is both a red-herring and a straw-man at the same time! >The level to which someone will go to justify their addiction to animal foods is truly remarkable. As I suspected, it's really not about health, is it? ## Edit, re your comment below: I see the misunderstanding. You skipped the part where I said those where the first two results of a search that took me 5 seconds. You can find other examples pertaining to deficiencies in lean body mass, vitamin D, and (IIRC) testosterone in men. The cortisol literature also gives very mixed results, so while I suspect the causes are actually not related to veganism per se, I seriously question the purported protective effects thereupon. Again, I've given you all the tools to learn about this on your own, but you'd apparently rather quote "plant positive" than cultivate an interest in science. Best of luck.

by noondip 11y ago

omginternets 11y ago

We can criticize Taubes for his low-carb advocacy, but that article is only indirectly related to low-carb diets: it's about how the USDA standards were determined. Moreover, a rebuttal from a site called "plant positive" hardly stacks up against a peer-reviewed source... just saying... The second paper draws distinctions between several forms of fat hilighting the weak evidentiary link between most fats and CHD. Trans fats are an obvious exception. I posted it in response to the claim that low-fat diets are almost certainly healthier. At the very least, that paper reveals that eating meat isn't incompatible with longevity and good health, contrary to claims you've been making all over this comments section. But since you asked, here's what 5s on sci-hub revealed, clicking literally on the first two links without looking: - http://goo.gl/tWB3LA http://goo.gl/tWB3LA // Maternal vegan diet causing a serious infantile neurological disorder due to vitamin B12 deficiency - http://search.proquest.com.sci-hub.io/docview/197420736?pq-origsite=gscholar http://search.proquest.com.sci-hub.io/docview/197420736?pq-o... // yeah, ok, it's raw-vegan, but the B12 issue applies to all vegans (as noted in the refs of paper 1), especially since many can't seem to distinguish between B12 contents and bioavailable B12 ... To be clear, my claim isn't that vegan diets are unhealthy. Rather, it's that we don't really know much due to the poor state of nutritional epidemiology, and that there's at least some evidence showing that veganism is really hard to get right.

noondip 11y ago
The paper doesn't categorize low-fat vegan diets. The closest to it was recognized though: "only a Mediterranean dietary pattern was related to CHD in RCTs." (assuming saturated fat from meat was replaced with MUFAs or PUFAs). Also, the B12 boogeyman? Just take a weekly supplement and be fine.
- omginternets 11y ago
  >The paper doesn't categorize low-fat vegan diets The point wasn't to do a systematic review of the literature, but rather to counter your argument whereby those skeptical of the lipid hypothesis are equivalent to climate change deniers. If you're actually interested in this stuff, I invite you to cultivate a genuine interest in the matter and use this nifty little link to get to all the paywalled papers your heart desires: http://sci-hub.io/ http://sci-hub.io/ Further, I'd be happy to share what I think good guidelines are for separating wheat from chaff in nutritional epidemiology studies. >Also, the B12 boogeyman? Just take a weekly supplement and be fine. I mean no disrespect, but I find this answer to be as comical as it is widespread. In one fell swoop, you've (A) implied that vegan diets are not balanced (B) ignored the body of literature surrounding the (possible) toxicity of artificial vitamins (C) undermined your sustainability argument. Moreover, B12 is but one example; I again invite you to make liberal use of sci-hub, pubmed and google scholar.
  - noondip 11y ago
    So now vegans are purportedly dying by the millions from B12 vitamin toxicity? The same ones which are routinely fed to livestock? The level to which someone will go to justify their addiction to animal foods is truly remarkable.
    - omginternets 11y ago
      >So now vegans are purportedly dying by the millions from B12 vitamin toxicity? That's a very, very strange interpretation of what I wrote. On the purely academic point, it's even more ridiculous in that one doesn't have to die from a bad diet in order for it to be unhealthy. Your comment is both a red-herring and a straw-man at the same time! >The level to which someone will go to justify their addiction to animal foods is truly remarkable. As I suspected, it's really not about health, is it? ## Edit, re your comment below: I see the misunderstanding. You skipped the part where I said those where the first two results of a search that took me 5 seconds. You can find other examples pertaining to deficiencies in lean body mass, vitamin D, and (IIRC) testosterone in men. The cortisol literature also gives very mixed results, so while I suspect the causes are actually not related to veganism per se, I seriously question the purported protective effects thereupon. Again, I've given you all the tools to learn about this on your own, but you'd apparently rather quote "plant positive" than cultivate an interest in science. Best of luck.