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What I'm about to say is unfortunate but true. China has a big us against the world mentality. Economic "attacks" are often seen as attacks by nation states, no

by PakG1 11y ago

What I'm about to say is unfortunate but true. China has a big us against the world mentality. Economic "attacks" are often seen as attacks by nation states, not by individuals, and as such, directly reflect foreign policy attitudes. Language like this only adds fuel to the fire. Given the different worldview about how the world works, motivations will always be suspect. Official party mouthpieces will never view such actions as a secular step to simply make money, and many especially uneducated people (who still make up a huge portion of the country) would agree with the mouthpieces on how to understand it. I'm not saying that we should coddle nation states. I am saying that it's unfortunate that I think an economic exercise would result in strained foreign relations at all levels. At the very least, it easily gives the government a scapegoat on which to blame things.

diego_moita 11y ago
> China has a big us against the world mentality. It is a typical pattern on authoritarian mentalities and regimes. You'll find the same in Russia, widely spread among the Latin American left and the supporters of far right Republican candidates (Trump & Cruz). The best to do is to "give them enough rope so that they hang themselves", unfortunately. Authoritarian, centralized and anti free trade regimes end up broken because they suffocate economic diversity, see Argentina, Venezuela and Russia.
- um_ya 11y ago
  And yet, people will continue to praise people like Bernie Sanders. Centralizing government authority does not make the world better.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - knowaveragejoe 11y ago
    Is that because it is inherently flawed, or because it isn't done correctly?
    - viggity 11y ago
      No true scotsman, huh? Like it or not, power corrupts. the more centralized, the more power, the more corruption.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Transparency negates corruption, centralized or not.
        kbutler 11y ago
        There are lots of corrupt governments that are pretty open and transparent about it. I'm not sure that transparency can trump centralized power. When you get enough centralized power, you get to do what you want, whatever others think. Quick google search: http://info-a.wdfiles.com/local--files/resursi/Catharina%20Lindstedt.%20Daniel%20Naurin%202003%20Transparency%20Against%20Corruption%20_Accepted%20version_.pdf http://info-a.wdfiles.com/local--files/resursi/Catharina%20L... "reforms focusing on increasing transparency should be accompanied by measures for strengthening citizens’ capacity to act upon the available information if we are to see positive effects on corruption. "
  - error_logic 11y ago
    Government is not the only form of centralization of power. Private entities pose similar threats, at a certain point. Sanders: "If an institution is too big to fail, it is too big to exist." Government can centralize things, yes. It can also break up existing centralized markets...and increase healthy competition.
    - um_ya 11y ago
      Sanders is simply taking power from several financial elites, and giving it to a single centralized authority. Sanders fails to realize that the biggest institution that is too big to fail, is the U.S. government. We should spend more time dismantling all the government powers, and not adding to them.
      - error_logic 11y ago
        The increasing centralization of things like emergency powers that state governors once controlled (details would take research to cite) is worrisome and you make a fair point. You lost me when you said "all" powers though. The Constitution is a 2nd draft for a reason: We need some centralized power to keep a unified front in order to benefit from the economy of scale it provides.
obrero 11y ago
> China has a big us against the world mentality In 2001, George Bush ordered the Air Force to fly along the Chinese border, to purposefully set off China's attack systems. Then, one of the fighter jets rammed into a Chinese pilot, crashing his plane and killing him. Then, the attacking US plane landed without authorization within Chinese territory. The Chinese sent a crew aboard the airplane and the US media and politicians went ballistic about how "the Chinese are spying on our technology!" and demanded the equipment be returned. The plane pilot was given the Distinguished Flying Cross upon his return to ticker tape parades. Not long after this Bush said "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists". Which country has an us against the world mentality? > Economic "attacks" are often seen as attacks by nation states, not by individuals What is TPP but an attack by various nation states against China? The main purpose of the TPP is an economic attack on China (with some benefits thrown in for copyright holders etc.) Governments have been attacking China for the past 2+ centuries, they are not imagining it. General MacArthur was bombing China in the 1950s, causing China to enter the Korean war.
- JackFr 11y ago
  This is simply wrong on a number of important facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident A Chinese interceptor fighter jet collided with a propeller powered US electronics intelligence aircraft flying in international airspace.
  - neurotech1 11y ago
    Which is precisely why "close encounters" between Chinese & US, or Russian and US, aircraft are treated seriously. Prior to the 2001 Hainan Island incident, it wasn't a serious issue most of the time.
- johngalt 11y ago
  An EP3 is not a fighter. The collision was a prop plane vs a mig 21. "Yes officer as you can clearly see: I was driving my ferrari. Trying to get away from the old man pushing a wheelbarrow, but he chased me down. Then he slammed right into me."
maceo 11y ago
This mentality was necessary for national survival given their history. From being doped up and murdered by imperialist westerners during the opium wars to being occupied and raped by imperial japan. A unite and take on the world mentality is what allowed China to win sovereignty, and given how far they've come, I'd say the "us against the world" mentality has worked wonders for them so far.
cylinder 11y ago
>China has a big us against the world mentality And Americans don't? Probably the most paranoid people with such limited understanding of the surrounding world...
- ars 11y ago
  No, they don't. They might have "Americans are best", but not Us against the World.
  - 932874 11y ago
    I'll guess your country isn't on this list. > Instances of the United States overthrowing, or attempting to overthrow, a foreign government since the Second World War. (* indicates successful ouster of a government) China 1949 to early 1960s Albania 1949-53 East Germany 1950s Iran 1953 * Guatemala 1954 * Costa Rica mid-1950s Syria 1956-7 Egypt 1957 Indonesia 1957-8 British Guiana 1953-64 * Iraq 1963 * North Vietnam 1945-73 Cambodia 1955-70 * Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 * Ecuador 1960-63 * Congo 1960 * France 1965 Brazil 1962-64 * Dominican Republic 1963 * Cuba 1959 to present Bolivia 1964 * Indonesia 1965 * Ghana 1966 * Chile 1964-73 * Greece 1967 * Costa Rica 1970-71 Bolivia 1971 * Australia 1973-75 * Angola 1975, 1980s Zaire 1975 Portugal 1974-76 * Jamaica 1976-80 * Seychelles 1979-81 Chad 1981-82 * Grenada 1983 * South Yemen 1982-84 Suriname 1982-84 Fiji 1987 * Libya 1980s Nicaragua 1981-90 * Panama 1989 * Bulgaria 1990 * Albania 1991 * Iraq 1991 Afghanistan 1980s * Somalia 1993 Yugoslavia 1999-2000 * Ecuador 2000 * Afghanistan 2001 * Venezuela 2002 * Iraq 2003 * Haiti 2004 * Somalia 2007 to present Honduras 2009 Libya 2011 * Syria 2012 Ukraine 2014 * http://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list http://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-people...
    - hartpuff 11y ago
      And they use Fahrenheit. (We are now three posts away from a HandEgg jpeg.)
awakeasleep 11y ago
When I think about it, it's hard to see how this isn't an attack by us. If this speculation hurts China, then some citizens US citizens have used a tool to attack and 'injure' a soverign nation. Seems like that would be our responsibilty the same way it'd be our responsibilty if we had a citizen milita that staged a raid into another country. Or it's your responsiblity if your kid breaks your neighbor's windows. And what makes that 'seat of the pants' lawyering correct is that we're talking about soverign entities without an enforcable body of law to regulate their conduct, so we can't get off on a technicality.
- simonh 11y ago
  Nobody is doing anything wrong though. They are simply buying and selling on open markets. They're not even breaking any Chinese law, or in many cases even doing anything in China itself. Any harm that comes to the Chinese economy will actually be inflicted by China trying to support policies that are not economically viable, but by the hedge funds. When George Soros, based in New York, 'broke' the bank of England it was not an attack on Britain either by him or the US. He broke no laws. In fact by showing that the ERM was unsustainable and thereby preventing us adopting the Euro* he did us a massive favour. The UK economy is eternally in his debt. * Alright, it's a bit of a stretch laying that entirely at his feet, but in an alternate timeline where we stayed in the ERM Euro membership was the logical outcome.

by PakG1 11y ago

diego_moita 11y ago

> China has a big us against the world mentality. It is a typical pattern on authoritarian mentalities and regimes. You'll find the same in Russia, widely spread among the Latin American left and the supporters of far right Republican candidates (Trump & Cruz). The best to do is to "give them enough rope so that they hang themselves", unfortunately. Authoritarian, centralized and anti free trade regimes end up broken because they suffocate economic diversity, see Argentina, Venezuela and Russia.

um_ya 11y ago
And yet, people will continue to praise people like Bernie Sanders. Centralizing government authority does not make the world better.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- knowaveragejoe 11y ago
  Is that because it is inherently flawed, or because it isn't done correctly?
  - viggity 11y ago
    No true scotsman, huh? Like it or not, power corrupts. the more centralized, the more power, the more corruption.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      Transparency negates corruption, centralized or not.
      - kbutler 11y ago
        There are lots of corrupt governments that are pretty open and transparent about it. I'm not sure that transparency can trump centralized power. When you get enough centralized power, you get to do what you want, whatever others think. Quick google search: http://info-a.wdfiles.com/local--files/resursi/Catharina%20Lindstedt.%20Daniel%20Naurin%202003%20Transparency%20Against%20Corruption%20_Accepted%20version_.pdf http://info-a.wdfiles.com/local--files/resursi/Catharina%20L... "reforms focusing on increasing transparency should be accompanied by measures for strengthening citizens’ capacity to act upon the available information if we are to see positive effects on corruption. "
- error_logic 11y ago
  Government is not the only form of centralization of power. Private entities pose similar threats, at a certain point. Sanders: "If an institution is too big to fail, it is too big to exist." Government can centralize things, yes. It can also break up existing centralized markets...and increase healthy competition.
  - um_ya 11y ago
    Sanders is simply taking power from several financial elites, and giving it to a single centralized authority. Sanders fails to realize that the biggest institution that is too big to fail, is the U.S. government. We should spend more time dismantling all the government powers, and not adding to them.
    - error_logic 11y ago
      The increasing centralization of things like emergency powers that state governors once controlled (details would take research to cite) is worrisome and you make a fair point. You lost me when you said "all" powers though. The Constitution is a 2nd draft for a reason: We need some centralized power to keep a unified front in order to benefit from the economy of scale it provides.

obrero 11y ago

> China has a big us against the world mentality In 2001, George Bush ordered the Air Force to fly along the Chinese border, to purposefully set off China's attack systems. Then, one of the fighter jets rammed into a Chinese pilot, crashing his plane and killing him. Then, the attacking US plane landed without authorization within Chinese territory. The Chinese sent a crew aboard the airplane and the US media and politicians went ballistic about how "the Chinese are spying on our technology!" and demanded the equipment be returned. The plane pilot was given the Distinguished Flying Cross upon his return to ticker tape parades. Not long after this Bush said "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists". Which country has an us against the world mentality? > Economic "attacks" are often seen as attacks by nation states, not by individuals What is TPP but an attack by various nation states against China? The main purpose of the TPP is an economic attack on China (with some benefits thrown in for copyright holders etc.) Governments have been attacking China for the past 2+ centuries, they are not imagining it. General MacArthur was bombing China in the 1950s, causing China to enter the Korean war.

JackFr 11y ago
This is simply wrong on a number of important facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident A Chinese interceptor fighter jet collided with a propeller powered US electronics intelligence aircraft flying in international airspace.
- neurotech1 11y ago
  Which is precisely why "close encounters" between Chinese & US, or Russian and US, aircraft are treated seriously. Prior to the 2001 Hainan Island incident, it wasn't a serious issue most of the time.
johngalt 11y ago
An EP3 is not a fighter. The collision was a prop plane vs a mig 21. "Yes officer as you can clearly see: I was driving my ferrari. Trying to get away from the old man pushing a wheelbarrow, but he chased me down. Then he slammed right into me."

maceo 11y ago

This mentality was necessary for national survival given their history. From being doped up and murdered by imperialist westerners during the opium wars to being occupied and raped by imperial japan. A unite and take on the world mentality is what allowed China to win sovereignty, and given how far they've come, I'd say the "us against the world" mentality has worked wonders for them so far.

cylinder 11y ago

>China has a big us against the world mentality And Americans don't? Probably the most paranoid people with such limited understanding of the surrounding world...

ars 11y ago
No, they don't. They might have "Americans are best", but not Us against the World.
- 932874 11y ago
  I'll guess your country isn't on this list. > Instances of the United States overthrowing, or attempting to overthrow, a foreign government since the Second World War. (* indicates successful ouster of a government) China 1949 to early 1960s Albania 1949-53 East Germany 1950s Iran 1953 * Guatemala 1954 * Costa Rica mid-1950s Syria 1956-7 Egypt 1957 Indonesia 1957-8 British Guiana 1953-64 * Iraq 1963 * North Vietnam 1945-73 Cambodia 1955-70 * Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 * Ecuador 1960-63 * Congo 1960 * France 1965 Brazil 1962-64 * Dominican Republic 1963 * Cuba 1959 to present Bolivia 1964 * Indonesia 1965 * Ghana 1966 * Chile 1964-73 * Greece 1967 * Costa Rica 1970-71 Bolivia 1971 * Australia 1973-75 * Angola 1975, 1980s Zaire 1975 Portugal 1974-76 * Jamaica 1976-80 * Seychelles 1979-81 Chad 1981-82 * Grenada 1983 * South Yemen 1982-84 Suriname 1982-84 Fiji 1987 * Libya 1980s Nicaragua 1981-90 * Panama 1989 * Bulgaria 1990 * Albania 1991 * Iraq 1991 Afghanistan 1980s * Somalia 1993 Yugoslavia 1999-2000 * Ecuador 2000 * Afghanistan 2001 * Venezuela 2002 * Iraq 2003 * Haiti 2004 * Somalia 2007 to present Honduras 2009 Libya 2011 * Syria 2012 Ukraine 2014 * http://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list http://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-people...
  - hartpuff 11y ago
    And they use Fahrenheit. (We are now three posts away from a HandEgg jpeg.)

awakeasleep 11y ago

When I think about it, it's hard to see how this isn't an attack by us. If this speculation hurts China, then some citizens US citizens have used a tool to attack and 'injure' a soverign nation. Seems like that would be our responsibilty the same way it'd be our responsibilty if we had a citizen milita that staged a raid into another country. Or it's your responsiblity if your kid breaks your neighbor's windows. And what makes that 'seat of the pants' lawyering correct is that we're talking about soverign entities without an enforcable body of law to regulate their conduct, so we can't get off on a technicality.

simonh 11y ago
Nobody is doing anything wrong though. They are simply buying and selling on open markets. They're not even breaking any Chinese law, or in many cases even doing anything in China itself. Any harm that comes to the Chinese economy will actually be inflicted by China trying to support policies that are not economically viable, but by the hedge funds. When George Soros, based in New York, 'broke' the bank of England it was not an attack on Britain either by him or the US. He broke no laws. In fact by showing that the ERM was unsustainable and thereby preventing us adopting the Euro* he did us a massive favour. The UK economy is eternally in his debt. * Alright, it's a bit of a stretch laying that entirely at his feet, but in an alternate timeline where we stayed in the ERM Euro membership was the logical outcome.