7 ms·

Positive Fantasies About the Future Predict Symptoms of Depression

71 points by bemmu 11y ago

carlmcqueen 11y ago
Behind a subscription model for the journal, so unable to read the article but: I would love to read what the definition of positive fantasies in this case would be. I'm probably mostly curious because I've always been a day-dreamer and curious what the difference from mind wandering to positive self fantasies might be.
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  My intuition is the difference between, say, imagining random stories or events, versus imagining a future self accomplishing some thing you actually want to accomplish. But I'm also unable to read it, so this is just speculation. Mind wandering - Walter Mitty style fantasies of being a submarine commander in WWII. Positive fantasies - Finishing this graduate degree and becoming an esteemed, recognized member of your field.
- hasenj 11y ago
  Indulging yourself eating junk food believing that you will lose weight and become fit in the near future anyway. Day dreaming and generally being oblivious .. is probably strongly correlated with this kind of thinking. At least anecdotally I know it in myself. Day dreaming is the opposite of "conscientiousness".
- nairboon 11y ago
  It's not defined very clearly in the article, but they seem to use the definition from an earlier article: >"Positive fantasies about the future are positively experienced mental images of future desired events that emerge in the stream of thought ... They depict an idealized version of the future that may include the attainment of desired future outcomes, as well as smooth, idealized processes of working toward these outcomes." Kappes, H. B., & Oettingen, G. (2011). Positive fantasies about idealized futures sap energy
  - jsprogrammer 11y ago
    Do they define idealized? It seems the key aspect was just pushed off into another word.
jawarner 11y ago
Wow! This seems related to [self-discrepancy theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discrepancy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discrepancy_theory), which posits that the gap between the "ideal self" and the "actual self" creates inner conflict.
mariodiana 11y ago
I've only read the abstract, but here is my guess. There is a phenomenon where some people vividly fantasize about the "great results" of some yet-to-be-taken action or set of actions. The fantasizing itself brings them satisfaction. This satisfaction, then, in a sense undermines the sense of dissatisfaction that is necessary to motivation. Thus, the person never puts his plans into action. I would think that the resulting failure to achieve then triggers depression. In plainer terms, for some people daydreaming is its own reward, but it's a short-term reward that undermines the effort needed to achieve reward in the long-term. When the dream fades and you're still where you are, that's depressing.
- lawpoop 11y ago
  I was thinking that having positive fantasies about the future could be an escape mechanism from present unpleasant feelings.
- dmichulke 11y ago
  It could also be high expectations: Woman: I'm going to marry a rich guy that I love and have three children and live happily ever after Man: I'm going to change the world with my non-profit start-up and be a rockstar programmer. Later, I'll sell it for billions and spend time with family. Reality: Man and woman have a relationship that ends after 5 years, no children, and both have a standard peon job in a big company without any influence or reponsibility.
  - ashark 11y ago
    Richard Yates' Revolutionary Road is an excellent exploration of a couple with aspirations that don't match reality and/or their willingness to work to achieve what they want. Great narrative voice that manages to be detached and matter-of-fact while being heart-wrenching sympathetic. Must be read to be believed, very impressive.
  - skaplun 11y ago
    High expectations for a woman is to get married? Not sure you realized what you wrote
sebringj 11y ago
What findings! Now go study why proving the obvious gives meaning to one's life.
- Jtsummers 11y ago
  "Positive thinking", in various forms, is standard practice for therapy with depression and anxiety (both generally highly correlated with negative thoughts and fantasies; very pessimistic, worst case sort of thinking). The near-term benefits of it are incredibly useful, it can get people out of their current, negative, mental situations. But identifying long-term problems with it is important. It may seem obvious to some, but if there's not a strong link between the two measured over a population, you can't know how bad it may or may not be. It could be that a large percentage ends up slipping back into depression after the original therapy efforts in which case, yeah, the method has problems or needs better follow-up. Or it could be that some (small) percentage gets trapped in the fantasies and fails to actualize them. It's still important to find methods to help them, but the scale of the problem has to be measured to understand what's happening and why.
  - sebringj 11y ago
    I wonder if there is a similarity in this case: Being in a state of hunger makes one feel hungry and long for food, perhaps even dream of it while sleeping. A temporary therapy would be to have the person imagine they are full, pressing in their stomach. Would that work temporarily? Maybe. But the underlying problem is still there. I don't know.
- klodolph 11y ago
  A hundred years ago it was "obvious" that blacks were inherently less intelligent and more closely related to monkeys. Armchair scientists, who make claims but don't study them, are bad influences on the rest of the world.
  - sebringj 11y ago
    There are analogies but that one clearly went off course. Sarcasm sure invites responses. Here's an analogy about the actual content: Athletic tape while initially effective has been shown among a large population to eventually lead to arthritic states. That would make sense except that persons using athletic tape on their knees for example, already need it because they are tending to have soreness and stiffness (leading toward an arthritic condition already). Doesn't that sound familiar?
mbritton72 11y ago
This is another manifestation of delusional disorder.
conistonwater 11y ago
How big is the effect?
- tedks 11y ago
  Really big actually: >As expected, the more positively participants fantasized, the fewer symptoms of depression they showed at Time 1, r = −.29, p < .02, but the more symptoms they showed a month later, r = .45, p < .001 (see Table 2). The same patterns emerged when we analyzed the positive- and negative-fantasies scores separately (at Time 1: ps < .07; change between Times 1 and 2: ps ≤ .002).
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
cpncrunch 11y ago
In the case where depression is caused by life events, I think a better solution is to make changes to fix the problems in your life rather than just engage in wishful thinking.
- jacalata 11y ago
  Oh yea, my friend should have just fixed that incident where he found his sisters body instead of being depressed about it.
  - cpncrunch 11y ago
    Why do people have to post dickish comments like this when there is any discussion of depression? It should have been obvious from my comment that I was referring to life events such as stressful jobs, bad relationships, etc. and not traumatic events over which you have no control.
    - int_handler 11y ago
      I understood and agree with what you intended to say, but perhaps "life events" may have been a bit ambiguous, and some people tend to define "depression caused by life events" as depression caused by tragedies.
    - jacalata 11y ago
      Because people insist on posting dickish comments like "maybe they should just fix their problems" and then retreat into whiny complaints that they obviously didn't mean this for anyone who it didn't apply to, they just felt it was useful to poison the discussion by making uselessly broad comments.
chipsy 11y ago
If I might extrapolate with anecdotes, I know some people who are prone to extensive storytelling about every event. This leads them tremendously astray at times, because to make a better, more truthful story they weave in their hopes, fears, and biases. A short news item becomes another data point in making the myth of conspiracy, invasion, or the inherent failures of the other. And self-encouragement to act on a task tends to take the form of saying out loud, "it'll be better when it's done." But in both cases, talking it up does nobody any good. It's the mind being directed towards rationalizations about the future as a destination, a place to arrive at with a tidy fairy tale ending, and life doesn't really have those. What life has a lot of is journeys conducted by routine, accented with pivotal chance events. Whatever happens, you wake up the next day and continue. And that is depressing if you're convinced that an ending should take place!
pc2g4d 11y ago
Anyone have a link to the full text that's outside of paywall?
nier 11y ago
I am reminded of how the stoics believed that imagining the worst outcome made you a happier individual. http://www.philosophizethis.org/10-things-the-stoics-can-teach-you-about-being-a-happier-person/ http://www.philosophizethis.org/10-things-the-stoics-can-tea...

71 points by bemmu 11y ago

Behind a subscription model for the journal, so unable to read the article but: I would love to read what the definition of positive fantasies in this case would be. I'm probably mostly curious because I've always been a day-dreamer and curious what the difference from mind wandering to positive self fantasies might be.

Jtsummers 11y ago
My intuition is the difference between, say, imagining random stories or events, versus imagining a future self accomplishing some thing you actually want to accomplish. But I'm also unable to read it, so this is just speculation. Mind wandering - Walter Mitty style fantasies of being a submarine commander in WWII. Positive fantasies - Finishing this graduate degree and becoming an esteemed, recognized member of your field.
hasenj 11y ago
Indulging yourself eating junk food believing that you will lose weight and become fit in the near future anyway. Day dreaming and generally being oblivious .. is probably strongly correlated with this kind of thinking. At least anecdotally I know it in myself. Day dreaming is the opposite of "conscientiousness".
nairboon 11y ago
It's not defined very clearly in the article, but they seem to use the definition from an earlier article: >"Positive fantasies about the future are positively experienced mental images of future desired events that emerge in the stream of thought ... They depict an idealized version of the future that may include the attainment of desired future outcomes, as well as smooth, idealized processes of working toward these outcomes." Kappes, H. B., & Oettingen, G. (2011). Positive fantasies about idealized futures sap energy
- jsprogrammer 11y ago
  Do they define idealized? It seems the key aspect was just pushed off into another word.

jawarner 11y ago

Wow! This seems related to [self-discrepancy theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discrepancy_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-discrepancy_theory), which posits that the gap between the "ideal self" and the "actual self" creates inner conflict.

mariodiana 11y ago

I've only read the abstract, but here is my guess. There is a phenomenon where some people vividly fantasize about the "great results" of some yet-to-be-taken action or set of actions. The fantasizing itself brings them satisfaction. This satisfaction, then, in a sense undermines the sense of dissatisfaction that is necessary to motivation. Thus, the person never puts his plans into action. I would think that the resulting failure to achieve then triggers depression. In plainer terms, for some people daydreaming is its own reward, but it's a short-term reward that undermines the effort needed to achieve reward in the long-term. When the dream fades and you're still where you are, that's depressing.

lawpoop 11y ago
I was thinking that having positive fantasies about the future could be an escape mechanism from present unpleasant feelings.
dmichulke 11y ago
It could also be high expectations: Woman: I'm going to marry a rich guy that I love and have three children and live happily ever after Man: I'm going to change the world with my non-profit start-up and be a rockstar programmer. Later, I'll sell it for billions and spend time with family. Reality: Man and woman have a relationship that ends after 5 years, no children, and both have a standard peon job in a big company without any influence or reponsibility.
- ashark 11y ago
  Richard Yates' Revolutionary Road is an excellent exploration of a couple with aspirations that don't match reality and/or their willingness to work to achieve what they want. Great narrative voice that manages to be detached and matter-of-fact while being heart-wrenching sympathetic. Must be read to be believed, very impressive.
- skaplun 11y ago
  High expectations for a woman is to get married? Not sure you realized what you wrote

sebringj 11y ago

What findings! Now go study why proving the obvious gives meaning to one's life.

Jtsummers 11y ago
"Positive thinking", in various forms, is standard practice for therapy with depression and anxiety (both generally highly correlated with negative thoughts and fantasies; very pessimistic, worst case sort of thinking). The near-term benefits of it are incredibly useful, it can get people out of their current, negative, mental situations. But identifying long-term problems with it is important. It may seem obvious to some, but if there's not a strong link between the two measured over a population, you can't know how bad it may or may not be. It could be that a large percentage ends up slipping back into depression after the original therapy efforts in which case, yeah, the method has problems or needs better follow-up. Or it could be that some (small) percentage gets trapped in the fantasies and fails to actualize them. It's still important to find methods to help them, but the scale of the problem has to be measured to understand what's happening and why.
- sebringj 11y ago
  I wonder if there is a similarity in this case: Being in a state of hunger makes one feel hungry and long for food, perhaps even dream of it while sleeping. A temporary therapy would be to have the person imagine they are full, pressing in their stomach. Would that work temporarily? Maybe. But the underlying problem is still there. I don't know.
klodolph 11y ago
A hundred years ago it was "obvious" that blacks were inherently less intelligent and more closely related to monkeys. Armchair scientists, who make claims but don't study them, are bad influences on the rest of the world.
- sebringj 11y ago
  There are analogies but that one clearly went off course. Sarcasm sure invites responses. Here's an analogy about the actual content: Athletic tape while initially effective has been shown among a large population to eventually lead to arthritic states. That would make sense except that persons using athletic tape on their knees for example, already need it because they are tending to have soreness and stiffness (leading toward an arthritic condition already). Doesn't that sound familiar?

mbritton72 11y ago

This is another manifestation of delusional disorder.

conistonwater 11y ago

How big is the effect?

tedks 11y ago
Really big actually: >As expected, the more positively participants fantasized, the fewer symptoms of depression they showed at Time 1, r = −.29, p < .02, but the more symptoms they showed a month later, r = .45, p < .001 (see Table 2). The same patterns emerged when we analyzed the positive- and negative-fantasies scores separately (at Time 1: ps < .07; change between Times 1 and 2: ps ≤ .002).

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

cpncrunch 11y ago

In the case where depression is caused by life events, I think a better solution is to make changes to fix the problems in your life rather than just engage in wishful thinking.

jacalata 11y ago
Oh yea, my friend should have just fixed that incident where he found his sisters body instead of being depressed about it.
- cpncrunch 11y ago
  Why do people have to post dickish comments like this when there is any discussion of depression? It should have been obvious from my comment that I was referring to life events such as stressful jobs, bad relationships, etc. and not traumatic events over which you have no control.
  - int_handler 11y ago
    I understood and agree with what you intended to say, but perhaps "life events" may have been a bit ambiguous, and some people tend to define "depression caused by life events" as depression caused by tragedies.
  - jacalata 11y ago
    Because people insist on posting dickish comments like "maybe they should just fix their problems" and then retreat into whiny complaints that they obviously didn't mean this for anyone who it didn't apply to, they just felt it was useful to poison the discussion by making uselessly broad comments.

chipsy 11y ago

If I might extrapolate with anecdotes, I know some people who are prone to extensive storytelling about every event. This leads them tremendously astray at times, because to make a better, more truthful story they weave in their hopes, fears, and biases. A short news item becomes another data point in making the myth of conspiracy, invasion, or the inherent failures of the other. And self-encouragement to act on a task tends to take the form of saying out loud, "it'll be better when it's done." But in both cases, talking it up does nobody any good. It's the mind being directed towards rationalizations about the future as a destination, a place to arrive at with a tidy fairy tale ending, and life doesn't really have those. What life has a lot of is journeys conducted by routine, accented with pivotal chance events. Whatever happens, you wake up the next day and continue. And that is depressing if you're convinced that an ending should take place!

pc2g4d 11y ago

Anyone have a link to the full text that's outside of paywall?

nier 11y ago

I am reminded of how the stoics believed that imagining the worst outcome made you a happier individual. http://www.philosophizethis.org/10-things-the-stoics-can-teach-you-about-being-a-happier-person/ http://www.philosophizethis.org/10-things-the-stoics-can-tea...