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Web UI programming is complex compared to anything, I mean any GUI toolkit from the late 90s (my favorite is Qt). The problem is that the people who design JS

by js8 11y ago

Web UI programming is complex compared to anything, I mean any GUI toolkit from the late 90s (my favorite is Qt). The problem is that the people who design JS frameworks insist that you have to be able to use JS, HTML, CSS. This leads to bad API, you reuse something that was designed for documents for applications, and no one really knows how to map these different things properly. GWT could have been a viable route, but it sadly didn't catch on that much.

michaelwww 11y ago
Google created Dart and is busy rewriting GWT apps in Dart [1]. Dart isn't perfect, but it does simplify the process of writing an app. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10865748 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10865748
tshadwell 11y ago
I disagree. While I agree that web UI programming can undeniably be described as complex: a) JS, HTML and CSS have been designed to build more than "documents" for over 10 years. b) Contrary to the idea that these technologies lead to bad API, I see many high impact graphics toolkits moving to a CSS / HTML driven model even when the teams working on these toolkits are not majority web developers. Quick examples: GTK3 and Source 2. c) There are many Javascript frameworks that do not require deep knowledge of all three of these technologies to produce something. The vast majority of Javascript UI toolkits, for example jQuery UI aim to remove the need for in-depth knowledge of HTML and CSS to produce user interfaces. d) While I agree with you that there is no one true way to tie together these technologies, I think there are solid abstractions that tie HTML, Javascript and CSS together. I've been very excited about how terse and powerful d3 is for composing any kind of HTML/JS/CSS model.
Pxtl 11y ago
> The problem is that the people who design JS frameworks insist that you have to be able to use JS, HTML, CSS. This leads to bad API, you reuse something that was designed for documents for applications, and no one really knows how to map these different things properly. ExtJS. An old, mature JS framework designed for desktop-style apps on the browser. ExtJS code doesn't look like web code at all - no mentions of DOM and styling and stuff like that. All about widgets and data-binding, like making a desktop app. It's not perfect - being almost as old as JQuery, it has some flaws that would have been avoided in newer frameworks. But it's there and I use it professionally. The problem, of course, is "why does our webapp look like a desktop application but with non-native widgets?" Now everybody expects the web to be all designer-y. Even for a line-of-business app. It's on the web, it should look webby.
- douche 11y ago
  ExtJS is wicked heavy, though. We used it for a while (they have a really slick table component) but it was such a world unto itself, plus being like 10MB with all the required themeing and images, that we bailed and went to a jQuery-based component instead.
  - qohen 11y ago
    ExtJS is wicked heavy, though. And it's expensive: https://www.sencha.com/store/ https://www.sencha.com/store/
    - douche 11y ago
      Wow, I do not believe it was that pricey when we were using it.
      - Pxtl 11y ago
        I'm guessing most people are just using the GPL license since AFAIK the GPL doesn't matter when you're hosting it yourself.
mamcx 11y ago
Is like a devolution for desktop. The best, by far, Delphi. Visual FoxPro was good too. VB meh Winforms meh * 2 WPF good, but tooooo hard After this, is a long fall from the climb. (I unsure how good is cocoa for desktops, never used it except for iOS)

by js8 11y ago

michaelwww 11y ago

Google created Dart and is busy rewriting GWT apps in Dart [1]. Dart isn't perfect, but it does simplify the process of writing an app. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10865748 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10865748

tshadwell 11y ago

I disagree. While I agree that web UI programming can undeniably be described as complex: a) JS, HTML and CSS have been designed to build more than "documents" for over 10 years. b) Contrary to the idea that these technologies lead to bad API, I see many high impact graphics toolkits moving to a CSS / HTML driven model even when the teams working on these toolkits are not majority web developers. Quick examples: GTK3 and Source 2. c) There are many Javascript frameworks that do not require deep knowledge of all three of these technologies to produce something. The vast majority of Javascript UI toolkits, for example jQuery UI aim to remove the need for in-depth knowledge of HTML and CSS to produce user interfaces. d) While I agree with you that there is no one true way to tie together these technologies, I think there are solid abstractions that tie HTML, Javascript and CSS together. I've been very excited about how terse and powerful d3 is for composing any kind of HTML/JS/CSS model.

Pxtl 11y ago

> The problem is that the people who design JS frameworks insist that you have to be able to use JS, HTML, CSS. This leads to bad API, you reuse something that was designed for documents for applications, and no one really knows how to map these different things properly. ExtJS. An old, mature JS framework designed for desktop-style apps on the browser. ExtJS code doesn't look like web code at all - no mentions of DOM and styling and stuff like that. All about widgets and data-binding, like making a desktop app. It's not perfect - being almost as old as JQuery, it has some flaws that would have been avoided in newer frameworks. But it's there and I use it professionally. The problem, of course, is "why does our webapp look like a desktop application but with non-native widgets?" Now everybody expects the web to be all designer-y. Even for a line-of-business app. It's on the web, it should look webby.

douche 11y ago
ExtJS is wicked heavy, though. We used it for a while (they have a really slick table component) but it was such a world unto itself, plus being like 10MB with all the required themeing and images, that we bailed and went to a jQuery-based component instead.
- qohen 11y ago
  ExtJS is wicked heavy, though. And it's expensive: https://www.sencha.com/store/ https://www.sencha.com/store/
  - douche 11y ago
    Wow, I do not believe it was that pricey when we were using it.
    - Pxtl 11y ago
      I'm guessing most people are just using the GPL license since AFAIK the GPL doesn't matter when you're hosting it yourself.

mamcx 11y ago

Is like a devolution for desktop. The best, by far, Delphi. Visual FoxPro was good too. VB meh Winforms meh * 2 WPF good, but tooooo hard After this, is a long fall from the climb. (I unsure how good is cocoa for desktops, never used it except for iOS)